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[BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2

 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 am 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 26 2007,02:43)
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(The_Real_Chris @ Mar. 25 2007,19:04)
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Shall we bet on results? I reckon the titans have it in the bag as it isn't that powerful an ork force (a lack of zap brigades for one, though perhaps the surprisingly high number of gunwagons could help).

I still don't get the focus on Supa-Zzap guns... I retrospect I really wish all my Oddboyz had been Soopa-gunz.  Two MW barrage templates is fantastic!  You can put BMs on multiple formations, you can get multiple attack on Titans; with doubling and firing into cover, those Zzaps are only hitting on a 5+, and what if the opponent has no war engines?  I've always found Soopa-gunz to be the superior choice of weapon.

Compare the results of hitting a titan in cover with a soopagun v zzap.

Zzap gun, 5+ to hit, avg 2 points of damage per hit - ~2/3 points of damage per shot.

Soopa gun, 6+ to hit, 1 shot per 2 DC, save allowed -

Warlord ~1/3 point per hit
Reaver ~1/4 point per hit
Warhound (assume 1 center, 1 non-center) !~1/3 point per hit

That's average.  Look at what happens with the upside on lucky die rolls and you'll see an even larger differential.

You're not going to catch multiple formations with templates more than about once if your opponent knows what  they are doing.  Even if you do, you won't be able to center the templates for max damage.

Soopagunz have a niche against certain kinds of targets, but not titans.

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:20 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 26 2007,04:41)
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Soopagunz have a niche against certain kinds of targets, but not titans.

"Niche" targets?

I'd say it's the Supa-Zzaps that are the "niche" weapon, eg Titan-killing, while the Soopas are the "all-rounder" weapon.

In "general" play, I can't see taking more Zzaps over Soopas.  Against Titans, of course they're better, but in for a "take-all-comers", they just don't seem like a great choice.

If enemy formation want to do combined attacks or are moving in mutual support range, there's a good chance of being able to at least glance multiple formations if the opponent isn't keeping a good eye on their formation density and such.

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:29 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 26 2007,04:18)
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I can't understand why you made those two intermingle situations.


Because I was hoping for a massive commander driven engage using my Warboss, Stompas, and Blitz Bridage against one of the Titans... didn't think I'd lose every Strategy roll!  *laugh*

And why so much doubling around. If you have range then you could just sustain (and if activation fails, you get to fire without minuses on hold)?


If you fail that roll trying to sustain, you get a Blast marker *and* you can't retain, I don't like either of those results as they can really screw up your plans.

In fact, I probably should've doubled around more, it was only after the second game that my opponent and I realized that Reavers don't have thick rear armour so cross-fires would've been nasty against them.

Supa Zzaps are very good, when you don't double around all the time. Against titans without shield they ignore the armour so no lucky saving of 4+.

Yes, against Titans the Zzaps are great, but I made my Ork force to be an "all-rounder" army, not a Titan-killing army, this was supposed to represent a "blind" tournament match; I always take Soopa-gunz to tournaments, in one double you can, generally, hit anything on the board with two MW barrage templates, and I find that to be pretty dang good.  *laugh*

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Chroma:  First, those numbers above were actually a single Zzap gun compared to 2 Soopagunz.  For 2v2, the Zzaps are ~4 times as good.

Zzaps come off better against most "general purpose" targets as well.  Because their to-hit values are lower, their firepower is reduced proportionately less by the -1 for double moving.

Loss of 1 of a pair of Zzap guns means exactly 50% firepower.  Loss of 1 Soopagun means that you have dropped well over 50% because you lose a template and drop in to-hit rolls.  Conversely, going up to 3 Zzap guns in a formation adds 50% to your firepower, while adding a third Soopagun gains almost no firepower, just some durability.

Against relatively large formations, that do not have RA, pairs of soopaguns are better.  The templates can generate enough targets to make up for the much lower to-hit rolls and the lack of RA means they are no weaker against TK than MW.  Basically, if you have 2 soopagunz in a formation and an opponent with a relatively target-rich army composition, the Soopagunz can out perform.  In all other cases the Zzap guns are better.

Admittedly, those kinds of forces/targets are relatively common, howevere, the Orks also have other tools to deal with those kinds of targets besides Soopagunz.  Big infantry formations are assault targets.  Big, non-RA armor formations are ripe for fightabommas.  It's the really hard stuff (WEs and other 4+RA targets) that the Orks have a hard time against and against those zzap guns are just plain better.

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:10 pm 
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Er... Whose trenchlines are you using?

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:26 pm 
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(mageboltrat @ Mar. 26 2007,14:10)
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Er... Whose trenchlines are you using?

Why do you ask?   :D

Those are actually trenchlines that I designed and that Pipboy has cast up for us... we've also got some other stuff in the works.   PM me if you'd like more information.

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:33 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 26 2007,14:06)
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Chroma: ?First, those numbers above were actually a single Zzap gun compared to 2 Soopagunz. ?For 2v2, the Zzaps are ~4 times as good.

Zzaps come off better against most "general purpose" targets as well. ?Because their to-hit values are lower, their firepower is reduced proportionately less by the -1 for double moving.

Hmmm... maybe I just like the Orky thrill of seeing targets under the barrage templates.   :D

With 2 Zzaps you can kill a maximum of 2 units a turn, on average 1 with doubles/cover.

With 2 Soopas there's the potential for many more targets affected; I see it as pummelling vs plinking.

Your comments about tackling RA and WE with Zzaps are appreciated, but I guess I take the opposite approach when dealing with large formation targets vs small formation targets: I prefer to shoot at the larger numbers and assault the smaller ones, the opposite of what you're talking about...  man, I'd really like to play Ork vs Ork with you some time Neal!  *laugh*  Where do you live again?

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 2:59 pm 
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Nashville, TN, and with reasonable notice, I will travel several hours to play.  I also have occasional family trips to the Detroit area, and occasional business trips to DC or other random urban areas (though this year our big international conference is in... Nashville).

Where are you?

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:19 pm 
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(Chroma @ Mar. 26 2007,14:33)
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 26 2007,14:06)
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Chroma: ?First, those numbers above were actually a single Zzap gun compared to 2 Soopagunz. ?For 2v2, the Zzaps are ~4 times as good.

Zzaps come off better against most "general purpose" targets as well. ?Because their to-hit values are lower, their firepower is reduced proportionately less by the -1 for double moving.

Hmmm... maybe I just like the Orky thrill of seeing targets under the barrage templates. ? :D

With 2 Zzaps you can kill a maximum of 2 units a turn, on average 1 with doubles/cover.

With 2 Soopas there's the potential for many more targets affected; I see it as pummelling vs plinking.

Your comments about tackling RA and WE with Zzaps are appreciated, but I guess I take the opposite approach when dealing with large formation targets vs small formation targets: I prefer to shoot at the larger numbers and assault the smaller ones, the opposite of what you're talking about... ?man, I'd really like to play Ork vs Ork with you some time Neal! ?*laugh* ?Where do you live again?


Heh. ?I'm curious, would you guys play online? ?I've been thinking about using VASSAL as a way of playing Warmaster and Epic online -- haven't done much with it, but I'm interested to see if there would be much interest in playing ?Epic in virtual 2d.






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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:40 pm 
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(nealhunt @ Mar. 26 2007,14:59)
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Where are you?

Hamilton, Ontario, Canada... maybe if you could get a conference in Toronto we could work something out!  *laugh*

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:41 pm 
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(Carrington @ Mar. 26 2007,16:19)
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Heh. ?I'm curious, would you guys play online? ?I've been thinking about using VASSAL as a way of playing Warmaster and Epic online -- haven't done much with it, but I'm interested to see if there would be much interest in playing ?Epic in virtual 2d.

I've never heard of this, do you have a link handy?

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:45 pm 
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I speak for all the gamers in bangladesh when I say I'd love it.

I am quite trusting when it comes to dice rolls and stuff, my opponent can make every roll for an assault for instance, I just need some way to move all the units about on a board and if its really tech a selected unit showing me how far it can move at engage/advance, double and march, and the targets at each stop point (so it does the measuring for me).

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 4:47 pm 
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As there is nobody about that plays Epic round here some virtual games sound ideal, I would imagine that everybody here will go for it.

Great BatRep Chroma.





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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:01 pm 
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(Justiniel @ Mar. 26 2007,16:47)
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Great BatRep Chroma.

Thanks!

I've actually got a stack of other BatReps I've been putting off, though they are fun to write... more fun to play though!  *laugh*  I'm just glad I figured out a relatively easy system for recording them as we play.

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 Post subject: [BatRep] "One Gun" Theory - Battle 2
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:26 pm 
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(Carrington @ Mar. 26 2007,11:19)
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Heh.  I'm curious, would you guys play online?  I've been thinking about using VASSAL as a way of playing Warmaster and Epic online -- haven't done much with it, but I'm interested to see if there would be much interest in playing  Epic in virtual 2d.

That would be frikken awesome! I'd love to be able to play folks online. Though controlling that many units in Vassal might be hard!

For those who don't know what vassal is, see here:
Vassal Home Page


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