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Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2006 7:42 pm 
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I haven't had any problems getting these files to open. i'd guess there's something wrong on your end DS.
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baronpiero
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:38 pm 
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E and C
They may well be a little over-expensive, but it should be prohibitively expensive to kit out a Vortex-heavy force. I think rather than reducing its cost, it might be an idea to increase its potency to Titan Killer (D6+1) rather than just (D6). This would make the most expensive weapon choice a little more reliable.


Something I missed in the other thread. If we're about to rethink some weapons as your system allows it, here are my two cents about the Vortex Missile:

Personaly I never liked the current stats for the weapon. It has a number of traits that make it hard to balance:
- It's fairly unreliable. One game it will not do much, the next game it may well win you the game by killing a titan outright.
- It's quite over-specialized. Not something I would ever take since I always play blind games.
- I'm also not very fond of the combination of 'unlimited range' and 'no LoS': I see more cheesiness than fun in that, and it's something you have to pay points for because you must consider top effectiveness to balance the weapon.

So in an attempt to rework it, I would be tempted to remove no LoS and have a max range. Then make the weapon a more reliable and not overtly expensive Titan-killer backup, such as:
Vortex missile: 120cm MW2+ Single Shot, Titan killer(D3+1 or 2D3)


Or rework it completely into a titan killer barrage like Eldar D-cannon, thus designed to take out very very big stuff :p
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:49 pm 
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I would like the deathstrike (guard one) to go to unlimited range, indirect. A bit of a change that could go with this as well.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 2:52 pm 
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You could always replace it with the Warp Missile, that thing was always one of my favorites. Teleporting missile systems  :D

In all honesty, I think the 'No LoS, Infinite Range' is fine. If the No LoS bothers you, make it Indirect Fire. That way you have to Sustain Fire to be able to use it without LoS. And there's presidence for non-BP Indirect Fire weapons, the Thudd Guns in the same list. That'd make it more like the Hellfire Missiles off the Ordinatus Golgotha, useful for killing something at extreme range, but it can't go anywhere while doing so. Which makes it a rather troublesome unit. It's like Deathstrike Missile Launchers for IG. Two of them have the potential to instant-death anything short of a Warlord, but you can only use them once! I can only imagine the kind of damage a Warlord with 2x Vortex Missiles and 2x TLDs might be able to inflict to enemy titans  :8:
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:28 pm 
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Quote ("baronpiero"]Something I missed in the other thread. If we're about to rethink some weapons as your system allows it @ [/quote)


Yep, a points-based system allows you to start tinkering with the weapons a little to give some character back to the Titans.


[quote="baronpiero"]
here are my two cents about the Vortex Missile:

*suggestions can be found a few posts above this one*


I was tempted to modify it to Indirect... in fact I subliminally did at one version of the list and then changed it back.  :D

Indirect with might provide interesting tactical choices (to stand still and bombard the enemy Titan, or move forwards and fire other weapons at a target currently out of LOF), or you could build a crazy 2x Vortex/2x Rocket/Fire Control Head Warlord of Indirect doom for a modest 1085 pts.

Damage 2d3 is an interesting idea along the same lines as I was thinking, it needs to be a little more reliable for such a cost. Damage D6 seems a holdover from the weapon originally being designed a little underpowered to fit in with the rest of the equal-points list.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2006 11:48 pm 
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Actually the 'Damage D6' is left over because it's essentially the same weapon that the Imperial Deathstrike Missile Launcher uses. Infact, I believe under previous editions of the rules they WERE the same weapon. They're essentially both high-powered anti-titan cruise missiles. Hence, both of them have basically the same stats. And as for the 2d3 against 1d6, I'd consider both to be just as reasonable. Especially if you double-up on the missiles. 4d3 compared to 2d6.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:18 am 
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lol fair enough.

I think either 2d3 or d6+1 would be best for the Vortex Missile, I think a minimum of 2 hits is nessesary for such a weapon.

2d3 could be interesting, but d6+1 is a simpler mechanic to get to grips with.

So... 2d3 or d6+1 ?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:26 am 
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I'm not entirely sure I would consider either of them to be necessary. But I'd go for D6+1 rather then 2D3 if you did either. 2D3 changes the probability of seeing any given result significantly (Getting a 4 is significantly more likely the a 2 or 6 for instance). D6+1 doesn't change the probability of getting any given result, it merely raises the minimum and maximum result slightly. I DO worry about how lethal the weapon becomes when you double it up under that setup. 2d6+1 averages 9 DC. Fire up your shield-stripping Reaver with 2x TLD and 1x VMB and drain an enemy's void shields/power fields and then let them have it with an average 9 DC direct to the face, not a friendly prospect. Most other races will have problems with that as well (Only ones I can think of who really have the potential to laugh off that kinda fire-power easily are Necrons and Eldar, but Eldar are likely to see their titan die in a single blow from a failed save. And Necrons are, well, Necrons. Best defense around essentially). Does it cost a lot of points? Sure. But it'll give you an instant-kill on a DC 8 Warlord fairly consistently. 8 shots at 4+, 5 shots at 6+ should come close to stripping all the shields off the Warlord (All but 1-2 on average) and the two missiles only need slightly above average rolls to finish it off if it has 2 shields left. And average with 1 shield left.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:52 am 
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Well, 2d3 would average 8 hits from two missiles, again being enough to destroy an unshielded Warlord in a single barrage.

If someone wants to dedicate your Reaver config (650pts) and a Vortex/TLD Warlord (945pts) against one single war engine, well they probably should have a pretty good chance at taking it down... but the Warlord at least is going to become significantly less powerful after that one round of Vortex shooting.

And let's not forget, the odds of it rolling a '1' to-hit for at least one of the two Vortex missiles is 1 in 3... :;):




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:06 am 
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True, true. They are fantastically lethal weapon systems, though. And I really wouldn't qualify them as needing to be upgraded much if at all. They run 100 points each for IG to take them, after all, and the IG ones are DRASTICALLY less likely to survive if the enemy gets first-turn and has any kind of long-range artillery. It's virtually guaranteed that the titan will live long enough to fire off the missiles unless the enemy dedicates a massive amount of fire-power to it. Which makes them extremely potent weapons against a lot of forces. They'll off IG SHT companies, titans, gargants... Really almost anything you care to point them att. With great effectiveness.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:14 am 
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So how about:

Vortex Missile: 120cm MW3+ Single Shot, Titan killer(D6+1 OR 2xD3), Indirect.

Meaning that you can Sustain and hit indirectly on 2's, or bimble round the corner of a building to use your tactical weapons and try and hit on 3's with the Vortex.

I quite like the idea of a limited (But still long) range for the Vortex missile, from a balance perspective as it's a consistantly more reliable weapon than the Deathstrike missile, but also it's supposed to be a battlefield-level weapon rather than an inter-continental weapon like the Deathstrike.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 2:27 am 
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I'd rather it's range remain infinite. It functionally is essentially a Deathstrike missile launched from a titan instead of a deathstrike launcher (Well, it carries a vortex warhead instead of a tac-nuke warhead. But still). I could see it moving to Indirect fire instead of No LoS Needed, though. Infinite Range, Indirect, TK(D6) and roughly 150 points would be good with me. You pay a slight premium for the ability to shrug off almost any kind of attack prior to it being launched, but it's functional price is not that much higher then a Deathstrike missile. And it IS just a one-shot weapon. But making it TK(D6+1) makes it better then it should be, IMHO. It means it's highly likely to be able to instant-death a Warhound, even one from full HP. Needing only a 4+ to kill one, so a 50/50 chance to instantly destroy a 250+ point warhound, typically, with a 160 point missile. Or a 5/6 chance to instant-death an IG SHT, 200 point unit with a 160 point missile. That is a FANTASTIC return on investment, especially since it can potentially do so much more damage then that. Combind with a little help from another unit to strip shields, it could kill a Reaver 1/3 of the time with just 1 missile. With 2 missiles it'll kill a reaver virtually every time. And have a chance to off one from full health. Or off 2 Warhounds or 2 SHTs in a single go quite likely.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 10:45 am 
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Fair enough, I may be thinking on too large a scale... I was just trying to think of ways to (slightly) compensate for the missile's destructive power.

2d3 will, on average, not one-shot kill a Warhound, but has a chance of doing so.


So, Indirect, Infinite Range, and 2d3 damage to make it more reliable for its cost?

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 12:41 pm 
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That might be OK. I like the Warp Missile myself. One-Shot, Infinite Range, Indirect Fire, TK(D6), MW 3+. Ignores Shields and Power Fields (and equivilents). But those things are kinda wickedly over-powered in general. TK(2d3) on the Vortex Missile might be OK. I'm not entirely convinced the weapon really needs a great increase in reliability, personally, but 2d3 is fairly good if you want to change it's effectiveness.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs V1.3
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Did the Vortex Missile used to ignore power fields and the like back in the TL rules? It'd certainly be a very powerful ability if given to the Epic:A missile, but also quite characterful.

That'd be an interesting slant to take things, ignoring powerfields / shields but only causing d3+1 damage or something.

Or am I thinking of rules that would be more appropriate to a Warp Missile?

It'd require a higher points price than the current Vortex either way.

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