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Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:12 pm 
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[quote="baronpiero,09 June 2006 (10:38)"][/quote]
baronpiero
Scout titan weapons are not the same from the beginning, so I guess you meant Reaver and Warlord from our previous discussion.


Aye, I should have made that clear.



baronpiero
Scale-up rather acts as a revelator in fact. Much like if you pushed the system to its limits and played entire armies with the above titans.


Using 440 points as the base cost for the Warlord will result in an unbalanced system... that's only 50 points more than a Reaver Hull... why would you take a Reaver if that was the case?

If a one-points fits all system was to be nearer to balanced, you'd need more expensive hulls (So as to have a decent cost difference between a Warlord and a Reaver) and less expensive weapon options, or at the least have all weapons options costing very similar ammounts... which again leads to an easy to abuse system.

I currently think a seperately balanced points system is preferable, though I'll have a think about its potential.


baronpiero
-> DSM are prohibitive


They may well be a little over-expensive, but it should be prohibitively expensive to kit out a Vortex-heavy force. I think rather than reducing its cost, it might be an idea to increase its potency to Titan Killer (D6+1) rather than just (D6). This would make the most expensive weapon choice a little more reliable.



baronpiero
-> Laser burner is a bargain


Yes, I think CC weapons in general are still undercosted. I'm going to raise them again in the next version.




baronpiero
That's true. But on the other hand, the warlord titan is slower and is less likely to get in CC. So it's close to no difference IMO, especially If youfinally round everything by 25 pts.


I'm considering both carefully.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:25 pm 
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I'd like to see all three titan chasis keeping their own separate weapon-costs. Warlords and Reavers are NOT equal in value, and weapons which kick major butt on one will not necessarially do well on the other. I'd consider Warlord melee-combat weapons to be worth more then Reaver, as it's got 2+ CC ability. As an example: Warlord with Devotional Bell, Chain Fist and Melta-Cannon. Moves as fast as a Reaver, fights in CC at 8 2+ normal and 6 2+ MW attacks, and gets 2 TK(D3) 3+ shots or 1 TK(1) 3+ fire-fight attack to boot. Plus all the other bonuses Devotional Bell gives! Surely people agree that 6 attacks at 2+ is preferable to 6 attacks at 3+, and should cost proportionally more. The trouble with 'costing the hulls' for the cost of higher melee/firefight ability is then you're paying a premium for something you won't use very often unless you take the right weapons. You'd be better off charging extra for those weapons capable of really exploiting this.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2006 3:10 pm 
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I've updated the list to 1.2e.

V1.2e - Reduced Vortex Missle costs slightly, and changed (D6) to (D6+1)
All CC weapons except Corvus Upgrades significantly increased in price again.


I think it's now approaching better balance. You can no longer build super-cheap CC Warlords for one thing, only moderately cheap CC Warlords. :D




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 9:17 am 
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I'm a little worried about the price of the Fire Control Head... It seems a bit cheap. A Warlord with 4x MRL and Fire Control Head will only cost you 800 points, and will be able to drop 12 BP worth of fire-power almost anywhere he feels like on most standard sized boards. That's a LOT of fire power, especially when combind with something which can resist enemy fire-power as well as a Warlord does! Have him camp out on your Blitz and play fire-support. The Deathstrike head has me a little worried too. Specifically it's humongous range. But that's a bit less of a concern.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 1:43 pm 
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Fire-Control-Upgrades:

Either we can,

a - Increase the cost of the Fire Control Upgrades.

b - Change it so that any Tactical weapon that gets upgraded to indirect becomes a Support choice instead. (Prevents 100% indirect loadouts, and nesesitates other Tactical Titans elsewhere in your army)

c - Both a & c!


(Say a & c out loud, lol)

Okay, not really all that funny, but I liked it...



Deathstrike head, aye it's got a huge range, but it's also very expensive (Same cost as a vortex missile which has Unlimited range) and it's Slow-Firing, so generally you'll only have two shots per game with it. I think it's close to balanced.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:09 pm 
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Quote (Evil and Chaos @ 10 June 2006 (13:43))
Fire-Control-Upgrades:

Either we can,

a - Increase the cost of the Fire Control Upgrades.

b - Change it so that any Tactical weapon that gets upgraded to indirect becomes a Support choice instead. (Prevents 100% indirect loadouts, and nesesitates other Tactical Titans elsewhere in your army)

c - Both a & c!


(Say a & c out loud, lol)

Okay, not really all that funny, but I liked it...



Deathstrike head, aye it's got a huge range, but it's also very expensive (Same cost as a vortex missile which has Unlimited range) and it's Slow-Firing, so generally you'll only have two shots per game with it. I think it's close to balanced.

I'd rather not see indirect fire weapons become Support choices, personally... That doesn't fit right with me. It makes the head giving you Indirect Fire largely worthless, IMHO. I'd recommend just upping the price a bit to account for the fact that it doesn't take up any slots on the hull (Personally I think ALL the heads should have to pay a 'premium' price over what they're probably worth, due to the extra tactical flexibility that having an effective 5 weapon-slots gives.)
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 2:12 pm 
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Aye, they're already paying a premium (The Fire Control Head is 50% more expensive than the standard Fire Control Pad), but a larger basic cost seems nessesary at the least... I'll try that first and see if it looks balanced.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2006 3:37 pm 
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Okay, latest version (1.2f) now uploaded.

V1.2f ? Corrected the Warlord?s Gatling Blaster costs.
Massively increased Indirect Fire upgrades (Fire Control Head & Carapace Landing Pad) costs.
All Head upgrades increased in cost.
Added Universal Upgrades from the AMTL list.

An indirect fire Titan will now come out either slightly more expensive than a normal Titan, or quite a bit more expensive than a standard Titan if a Head upgrade is used (Thus giving an extra indirect attack).




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baronpiero
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:24 pm 
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E and C
Using 440 points as the base cost for the Warlord will result in an unbalanced system... that's only 50 points more than a Reaver Hull... why would you take a Reaver if that was the case?

Your calculation for the reaver is based on the Mars pattern reaver, which I think does not cost the current 650 pts. So I would consider taking a warlord titan most of the time under your system.

But should the reaver chassis cost 340 pts in your system, meaning a Mars pattern ?reaver would cost 600 pts, the difference between reaver and warlord would be:
- 100 pts for the chassis
- about 100 pts for the 4th weapon to pick up.

A few examples:

Average configuration:
- Reaver with 3 turbolaser: 340 + 3 * 100 = 640 pts
- Warlord with 4 turbolaser: 440 + 4 * 100 = 840 pts
Cost ratio = 1,313 (4/3 being 1.3)

Bargain configuration
- Reaver with 3 Laser burner: 340 + 3 * 15 = 385 pts
- Warlord with 4 Laser Burner: 440 + 4 * 15 = 500 pts
Cost ratio = 1.298

Expensive configuration
- Reaver with 3 vortex missile: 340 + 3 * 200 = 940 pts
- Warlord with 4 vortex missile: 440 + 4 * 200 = 1240 pts
Cost ratio = 1.319

As you see, the cost ratio doesn't vary much. In effect, ?everything got scaled up proportionally whatever the configuration.That's why I think such a system could work and be balanced. Maybe it lacks formalization as regards to your methods but I believe it could be done.

- Would be simpler.
- Could be a first step to more general titan/war engine design rules.

Ilushia
I'd consider Warlord melee-combat weapons to be worth more then Reaver, as it's got 2+ CC ability. As an example: Warlord with Devotional Bell, Chain Fist and Melta-Cannon. Moves as fast as a Reaver, fights in CC at 8 2+ normal and 6 2+ MW attacks, and gets 2 TK(D3) 3+ shots or 1 TK(1) 3+ fire-fight attack to boot. Plus all the other bonuses Devotional Bell gives! Surely people agree that 6 attacks at 2+ is preferable to 6 attacks at 3+, and should cost proportionally more.


I agree that CC2+ attacks are better, and as a result the warlord gets to use his chainfist more effectively.

But it is a bit flawed to account for devotional bell that way for it isn't part of the basic Warlord chassis. You pay a premium for the extra movement and other stuff. Not the same thing and IMO my point about the reaver chassis having more movement is still relevant.

After that, it's your choice to see if CC weapons are best used on a reaver because you're more likely to engage, or on a warlord because you hit on 2+, but it wouldn't be fair to completely deny it. :)





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Ilushia
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:33 pm 
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I think you're probably overcompensating on the CPL. I'd put it at about 100 points or so. It's only the head indirect-fire unit which really worried me. The CPL is generally fairly balanced, since you're giving up a 4th weapon for the right to indirect fire your other weapons. But adding the ability to indirect fire without really giving anything significant up should cost significantly more.

Also: Why do the Fire Control Head and CPL cost MORE on the Reaver then on the Warlord? Typically they'll be less powerful on the Reaver then on the Warlord, since the reaver only  has 3 (or 2 with the CPL) mounts to put other weapons in.
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:47 pm 
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A Reaver costs 650 points under the current rules, not 600.

EDIT: Also note that you've presumed an average weapons cost of 100pts, when most have come out significantly cheaper than that.


If you're disinclined to select a Reaver under this rules list, then you'd most probably be disinclined to select a Reaver under the rulebook list anyway?

The aim of this list is not to change the points balance between the different titan types, but to balance the titan weapons costs to the rulebook config titans.

If it is shown that community consensus believes that the rulebook config Reaver should be changed to 600 points then I'll change it in a heartbeat. However, right now it costs 650 points, and that's what my points system is designed to be balanced against.



As to the CC attacks, I believe that the Warlord's better CC abilities require paying a premium for. Both to discourage a maxed out CC Warlord army, and to encourage the use of CC weapons on Reavers, which were historically the CC Battle Titan.

I also firmly believe that the Warlord's 2+ CC value and extra base stats in CC is worth paying a slight premium for (As currently implemented, that's on the order of 10 points or so).


So in summation, the current questions with the list put forward by baronpiero are:



- Should a basic rulebook config Reaver be reduced from 650 points to 600?

- Should the Warlord's CC weapons be cheaper?




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:58 pm 
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[quote="Ilushia,13 June 2006 (16:33)"][/quote]
I think you're probably overcompensating on the CPL. I'd put it at about 100 points or so. It's only the head indirect-fire unit which really worried me. The CPL is generally fairly balanced, since you're giving up a 4th weapon for the right to indirect fire your other weapons. But adding the ability to indirect fire without really giving anything significant up should cost significantly more.


Noted.

Also: Why do the Fire Control Head and CPL cost MORE on the Reaver then on the Warlord? Typically they'll be less powerful on the Reaver then on the Warlord, since the reaver only  has 3 (or 2 with the CPL) mounts to put other weapons in.


Under the standard conversion scheme I've been using, all Reaver weapons are at first costed higher than a Warlord's, in order to balance the total cost of the titan once fully equipped.


A twin rocket launcher, one carapace pad Reaver costs 690 points... 40pts over a book config Reaver.

A triple rocket launcher, one fire control Head Reaver costs 810 points, 120 points more than the CLP varient, and 180 points more than a basic config Reaver.

The Fire Control Head varient actually looks the more overcosted of the two to my eye, especially since a triple rocket, one CLP Warlord is only 825 points! This Warlord provides the same offensive capabilities, but vastly increased CC/FF abilities.

It definitely looks like both of the Indirect upgrades for the Reaver are slightly overpriced, and the Warlord's CPL looks slightly underpriced.

I'll make some slight ajustments, which should result in significant overall cost differences.

EDIT: On second thoughts I will only be reducing the Reaver's costs. The Warlord's look about right.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:20 pm 
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New list:

V1.2g ? Decreased the cost of the Reaver?s Indirect BP Weapons upgrades.

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NOVAGUARD
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:51 pm 
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Playing with my list, I came up with this. My warlord configs so far:

1. volcano cannon, gatling blaster, 2 turbo laser destroyers ->840
2. 2 gatling blasters, 2 rocket pods -> 725
3. 2 gatling blasters, 2 turbo laser destroyers -> 785
? Battle group total -> 2350
4. 2 volcano cannons, 2 rocket pods -> 835
5. 2 volcano cannons, 2 rocket pods -> 835
6. 2 plasma destructors, 2 rocket pods -> 860
? Battle group total -> 2530
7. 2 quake cannons, 1 carapace landing pad, barrage missile -> 860
8. corvus assault pod, power fist, 2 rocket pods -> 755
9. corvus assault pod, wreaker, 2 rocket pods -> 775
? Battle group total -> 2390
10. volcano cannon, power fist, 2 rocket pods -> 810
11. 2 plasma cannons, 2 rocket pods -> 835
12. 2 gatling blasters, 2 turbo laser destroyers -> 785
? Battle group total ->2450
13. 3 rocket pods, 1 carapace landing pad- > 625
14. 2 gatling blasters, 2 vortex missiles -> 885
15. 2 gatling blasters, 2 barrage missiles -> 835
? Battle group total ->2345
16. 2 plasma cannons, 2 plasma destructors -> 995

Possibility of adding head weapons and such is tempting?.

Normally: 16 x 840 = 13440
With the ?pay for? weapons = 13065

Per battle group 3 x 840 = 2520

All the battle groups iv designed (1 to 3 are finished, 4 to6 are being converted) they are mainly cheaper than I expected, im surprised that the nemesis battle group came out so ?cheap?. (2000+ pts for 3 figs?!?)  iv play tested most of my listed configs, and found them pretty solid.

I?m interested in how close the 2 values are. 375 pts over 16 titans shows some level of balance. Or I can?t pick harsh weapon combos!  

So what do you guys and gals think?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Modular Weapons Costs, V1.2
PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:22 pm 
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I'm not surprised if a lot of weapons loadout configurations come out cheaper than the standard book Warlord, being that the normal Warlord has 2x Turbo Laser Destructors & a Volcano Cannon, all of which are in the medium-to-high cost range.

Build a titan with 4xrocket pods and it'll come out significantly cheaper, but also pretty useless when facing armoured formations.

I think that using the AMTL army building ratios (50% tactical weapons etc) also goes a long way towards balancing the list.

I'm sure that you could get some interesting broken lists if those limits were removed. :D

What becomes interesting is whether the points costs would prevent these 'broken' titans from being abusive, due to the hundreds of extra points.

Warlord Titan with 4x Plasma Destructor & Deathstrike Head == 1195 pts.   :D  :laugh:


EDIT: Mind you, adding a Deathstrike head to NOVAGUARD's Plasma Cannon / Destructor Warlord comes in at 1145pts, and that's a legal combo!




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