Thanks, just good to get an idea where you're coming from. Would that list not be illegal based on 3.21 assuming it's a 3k list warhounds + macharius = 850 points of a 750 point limit.

Transport for the core formations, whilst undoubtedly good in the chimedons case seems prohibitively expensive whilst a 10 stand footslogging formation seems very lightweight especially as it'll be your only option for housing a supreme commander.

Also in reducing the minoris to 2 per formation, a 3BP barrage (although macro) seems overpriced at 375, for the points difference AML is redundant as an option. Thing is with the lack of aircraft and overall speed it leaves the list very limited in options for counter battery fire and/or chasing down broken or soon to break formations.

I now I'm late to the party so feel free to ignore, just some thoughts.

You are right, there were some last minute adjustments and I probably added things up wrong. The primary focus was the robots and quake +CLP.



AdMech is intentionally a slow list and you pay a premium for a chimedon equipped formations. (it does make these formations far larger with 20 units in the formation. You do have the option of taking a Corvus pod on a minorus upgrade for 150 points on the sagitarii and demi-century if you are looking for a cheaper transport option. That gives the formation a speed of 25cm and you can back things up with crusaders that are also 25cm.



I'm not sure I'd call it overpriced, but it is far more conditional than with the 2 quake +clp since it's pretty easy to neutralize. Playing against Guard with their deathstrikes and losing the initiative turn one ensured that I wouldn't be seeing much of their effectiveness that game. Overall it has the intended result of the quake+clp being less desirable.

The reduced effectiveness has made me start thinking about using a few other options instead or perhaps taking a majoris. I don't know that's a bad thing. However, I would like a few more games where the quake+clp doesn't get nuked to see how useful it actually is.

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-Vaaish

I'd be inclined to change the 25% restriction on allies back to at least 33%, as it stands a Skitarii force can't take a Warlord in a standard 3k game, which seems crazy given that of all armies they're the most likely to be working in concert with one.

As I understand it this was only lowered to remove Thunderbolt spam, and given Tbolts aren't even in the list anymore it's a moot point.



Minoris only has speed 15cm not 25cm, or is that a misprint?

Sure you do, but 150 points is simply to expensive for the utility, it's an all your eggs in one basket option and offers next to nothing in firepower (also the speed query?). With a corvus minoris you're still looking at a minimum 400 points for the formation which compared to a guard mech infantry company (400pts), marine tactical formation (275pts) or a basic guardian warhost in waveserpents (350pts) really does not stack up well at all in terms of value.

On the whole the infantry in this list feel more tech guard (well trained guard with toys) than skitarii (heavily augmented thus hard to kill, fearless, with lots of exotic built in weaponry)



It certainly has made the Quake+CLP undesirable, the problem is that ability to 'reach out and touch somebody' was something the list sorely needed. The way i see it the other problem is it also make minoris on the whole undesirable. As it stands again really does not stack up well value wise to comparable units.

Actually it was lowered to prevent the warlord from showing up in a 3k game and provide tighter restrictions on the macharius. I wanted to focus the list on the Skitarii and ordinatus rather than allies.




Minrous are standard 15cm, but taking a corvus pod increases their speed to 25cm.

The skitarii infantry have come up here and there and there. For starters I do not want to start making up non-cannon weapons just to give them something more exotic. Second, in working through all of the weapons available to the Imperium, probably the stand out best on an infantry company is the autocannon which, as you know, is already standard on Guard. We want to make the list different than red guard so we can't just give each stand one and call it a day. To be perfectly honest, Skitarii ARE tech guard. They have far better armor saves better CC and more firepower per stand than guard does. If you are looking for more augmentation, Gun Servitors, Secutors, Magos, and Praetorians are your ticket.




That's was the problem with having it there, the "reach out and touch somebody" ability was the only thing taken and it needed to be toned down. I'm also curious to your data and what you consider comparable units and how you feel that they don't stack up value wise to them?

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-Vaaish

Nightspinners 175pts 3bp (disrupt), whirlwinds 300pts 4bp

Off the top of my head, I'd take either of those over the quake+clp minoris at current points values. Especially the nightspinners.

This came about in part as an attempt to compromise with the previous list designer to accommodate a supplement he was putting together. The skitarii are a bit different from other lists in that they can pull custom titan load outs from the War Gryphons list. The Warlord allows for a massive variery of weapons combinations and keeping it out of a 3k game prevented these from being an issue without entirely removing the warlord.



It should be listed in the unit data sheet rather than the summary portion of the doc.



All of this opens up even more issues because all of those weapons already exist as ranged weapons and don't seem to adjust the FF or CC ability outside of the MM. You can't just say they have plasma guns so they are better FF but arm the stands with HB instead. I'm also not convinced the regular skitarii would have Marine level CC and FF ability either. Definitely better than guard, but outside of specialized troops like Robots or Praetorians, not marine level.




Ah ok, you were comparing arty specifically, I was thinking you were comparing the minorus platform in general. I'm not sure I'd consider nightspinners a fair comparison. They are 75 points less than the IG basilisk battery, faster and get disrupt all traded for shorter range.

Whirlwinds I think are a closer comparison, although in a one on one contest I think I'd have to give it to the quake+clp. For 75 points more you get AA and VS which will likely negate most of the WW fire, you also can target the WW before they can target you. Since you have a MW template you've got fair odds of picking off one before they get in range and after that you are on even footing BP wise which is going to make it harder for the WW to do any damage. Now, if you compare shooting against other things, the marines are getting an extra template which means more dice to roll, but the target still gets a save and you can't shoot at them as soon as with the Minorus. I haven't done the math specifically, but my gut tells me that you'd end up pretty close in damage done between the two with the WW coming out on top against anything without a save or high level saves and the minorus being better against vehicles and tougher infantry. You've got to look at more than pure firepower when making the comparisons.

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-Vaaish

Fair enough, I still think it makes little sense for an Admec list.



Not suggesting you add all those weapons in but it would be abstracted into the firefight values, just as it was to represent squad level support weapons in some other lists. This was always the premise when the original rules were being tested. As it is you have skitarii who are supposed to be relatively elite actually turning out quite bland. I'd understand the tech guard type of approach if infantry were a larger part of the list but as it stands I think it'll be rare to see more than a single formation of them in an average 3k list.




Nightspinners have the same range as whirlwinds, obviously qcannon is longer but assuming a 120cm deep table it's not that much of an issue, 90cm is generally fine. I'd certainly take either over a minoris formation.

Using WW's as an example

75pts cheaper
4bp vs 3bp (2 templates vs 1)
hitting on 4/5 vs 4/6
30cm move vs 15cm

All a minoris formation has going for it is being more resilient to counter battery fire (although also factor in WWs have ATSKNF) and mediocre inbuilt AA. The whirlwinds in this example are going to be more effective vs infantry, similar on vehicles, cheaper and offer more utility. I don't see the inbuilt AA a deciding factor as it's little more than a crutch to compensate for lack of aircraft and the utility they bring.

That's on paper. On the table, the minorus sits on the blitz and has no need to move since it can hit anywhere on the table which negates the speed advantage. It's got MW which makes up to a degree for hitting on a worse number and for the extra template since you don't need to deal with saves. They both provide artillery templates, but you are assuming both function the same. Let me put it this way, if you hit a stung out formation (and with arty around who wouldn't space things out) and get three hits on units with 4+ armor it potentially looks better, but if you get two hits with a MW template on the same your results will likely end up better. This isn't to say that there might not need to be adjustments, just there is very little data on the two minorus coy right now.

As a side note, the minorus and majoris have had AA long before the aircraft were stripped.

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-Vaaish

Actually both 3 and 4bp hit at 4/5

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I'm taking that from the original book, must have changed in a FAQ then?

Oct09 PDF downloaded from GW's website.

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I was wondering about that. My reference sheet has the 3bp being the same but when I checked the PDF of the book it was 6+ for the 3bp.

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-Vaaish

I'm aiming to do a full release of the AdMech list Friday of this week moving us out of the draft stages. If anyone has any battle reports or other testing data with the draft lists, now would be a good time to post them!

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-Vaaish