I don't really see any reason for 3 types of Gun Servitors. The Sagitarii can be assumed to have some already on their bases on occasion, with their Plasma Cannon attack. Also not a fan of the AA Heavy Bolters on anything but the Ordinatii.

That's not six; You're wrapping in extra unit types by adding in extra weapon choices.
That makes them extra list choices no matter how many times you claim they're not.

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Flavor is the reason. You can assume any number of things and eventually end up with a single blandly named and statted infantry stand or you can break some of that out.


Assuming max of three gun servitor options you gain 8 infantry unit types. It's still a far cry from 20 and I'm really not sure what point you are trying to make since I'm sure you can piece together that without my spelling it out. It sounds very much like argument for the sake of argument.

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My point is that you listed 20 infantry types in the opening post.
Then you said you only wanted to use 6 of them.
At which point I pointed out that you'd counted wrongly, that's all.
Any argument is in your own perception.

Indeed. Knowing that informs the fundamentals of the Theme.

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AOC and EC, from the first post:
"The goal of the list development is to represent the capabilities, structure, and units of the Adeptus Mechanicus Skitarii Legions in a way that is accurate to the fluff and available stats of known units. "

"This translates into better than average infantry formations with multiple ordinatii supported by Sagitarii, Robots, and Titans. "

The skitarii seem to have much more in common with the Ultramar PDF but to eliminate the pedantry surrounding the term "PDF" I changed the name of the core list to "Skitarii Legions". The list represents the skitarii in a "pure" form as they would operate on a forgeworld or as they would exist on deployment off world. In either case they would have titan support available. It does not represent a planetary militia called up for defense, the full legio cybernetica, a cataphractii legion, or ordo reductor. These are the professional armed forces of the AdMech as you would see them fighting and forms the core selections from which a legio cybernetica, Cataphractii regiment, or ordo reductor list might branch out from.


Sit right or not, that's what the fluff specifically lists asthe size of a typical maniple. You need a far more persuasive argument than "sits right" to make a case for different number on the robot maniples.



I'm not really sure what you are saying here. Are you saying remove the magos (tech-lord) upgrade and incorporate it into the sagitarii al la the IG regimental HQ formation and give the option to take 0,1,4, or 5 servitors?

I think we could work with 0 or 5 being the numbers of gun servitors taken, especially if the formation is limited to 0-1 with the magos included. I'm leery of seeing the sagitarii as a core formation with only 5 stands of fairly cheap infantry due to the popcorn effect. If we went that route I'd rather see the praetorians take the core slot with the sagitarii in support.



Mainly because we don't really have an official weapon that is titan grade and AA capable outside of perhaps the defense laser and I'm not sure how many defense laser minorus companies we want running around

I'd like to see the removal of imperial navy units entirely from the list with most AA being ground based. At this point it basically means you need to take a battle titan with CML, an Ordinatus, or take the flak upgrade for a core formation. I think this makes an infantry heavy list very difficult to use especially as my last game showed, so we have a couple of options.

First would be to put back the AA shot on praetorians which would work alright. The second is to create the AA gun servitor which people don't seem to like the concept of.

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I am comfortable with lack of aircraft to further differentiate AM from IG.

As regards the HB with AA, why not just use CML. We already have an AA weapon that would appear on the AM's Titans- no point in inventing a whole new weapon system. Just a thought. If wanted different stats for this weapon could always have a "Twin-CML" or "Long Barrelled CML" if you wanted to tweak the stats from the AMTL list CML.

But at least have nt invented a whole new weapon.

Cheers

James

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I think my biggest beef with the idea of a specific ordinatus is that we aren't really making it viable to drop the aircraft. You are still looking at a 400+ point vehicle formation for most AA which kinda defeats the infantry based with support concept we are aiming for. I really think it needs a form of dismounted AA rather than messing with the stuff we currently have right now.

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So it's basically the same list Theme as before but with Rapiers and mole mortars replaced with 3 types of gun servitor?

I've nothing against infantry AA incidentally it works fine in the Feral orks, chaos marines, cadians, and stompy onslaught lists IMO.

Since you want to do a generic attack & defence & everything between list, it's worth thinking about the defence laser emplacement for AA. Stats as per Imperator.

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I like many of the ideas here but to further expand on this one



What about opening up the ordinatus entry so that it can select a weapon and upgrades available to battle titans, that way we can remove the AA heavy bolter but also have room for putting in some quite thematic upgrades such as supreme commander and sacred icon, I don't think it should exclude AA elsewhere in the list though. I haven't the foresight to see what balance issues may arrise from this but I thought I'd throw it out there.

I'm also for the idea of switching praetorians and sagitarii around in their respective slots. The 3 types of gun servitor does seem a awkward, but I think it could be worked around. What concerns me more is that the unit could have 5 AA shots which may be difficult to supress if there are 5 other stands of the same type to soak up hits/BM's first.

Nice ideas overall and a good idea to create a post like this

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Not exactly. The gun servitors don't directly replace either the rapier or mole mortar not will they necessarily be gone from the list. What I put up there isn't a hard and final list, it's the basic structure of the core unit choice that are iconic or exclusive to the AdMech. Neither rapiers nor mole mortars fall into that category. I never said that the theme was changing here, the point was to define the theme and goal clearly so everyone was on the same page when we evaluate what units should form the core list before expanding the options. The list is still a generalist list that allows the player to determine how they want to run things and that's not something that will change for the core skitarii list. Subsequent lists for specific things like Ordo Reductor or the armored list would be more taylored.

I've been thinking about the defense laser and it's a cool idea, but I'm still undecided if it would be better to allow it to replace one objective after they've been placed or just replace the blitz.

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I don't see this as a good direction. Those upgrades are intended for the titan list and there is already a supreme commander option in the skitarii list. It would be confusing and problematic to shoehorn things in like this.



This is something I've also been mulling over. 5 shots is quite a bit even with AA6+ and only 30cm range. I'm thinking that the AA servitor would have to be AA only with no CC or FF value. For the shots they get we could set up a system like IG autocannons so that a full 5 stands would give 3 shots, three or four stands would grant 2 shots and so forth. However, going that route would mean we'd need to make the unit cheaper than either of the other two options and that probably means wen't need to make the AA versions too large for transport so you wouldn't have a bunch of cheap, easily transported units as a core formation with in built AA.

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just crib from the Oblitorators and give them generic weapons. Something like:

Servitor guns: 2 x 45cm AP5+/AT5+/AA6+

Why not just have the weapons be roughly equal in value and do like the Space Marine Dreadnought (i.e. the weapon selection is chosen before the game).

So the Servitor's weapon is:
Heavy Bolter OR Lascannon OR AA Autocannon

Or something of that nature.

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That would be ideal, but I don't know if it will be possible to do. If the stand limit is fixed to 5 we end up with a lot of variation. Are 5x 30cm AP5+ shots worth the same as 3x 30cm AA6+ shots or 5x 45cm AT5+ shots? I don't think so.

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