Except that the Plasma Blastgun and Vulcan Megabolter are in a section labelled "Scout or Battle Titan Weaponry." That makes them eligible for Ordinatus for the same reason they're eligible for inclusion on a Reaver

I apologize if anything I say comes across as hostile Vaaish, that's not my intent. I'm just being blunt

Crusaders
In their current incarnation, I don't like them.
Their main reason for existence isn't their CC ability, or shooting punch. They replaced Sentinels, and their purpose is to be a scout screen formation. Their price went up to compensate for their improved firepower, but their durability didn't increase at all. Sure, they are likely to do a bit more damage to the Teleport/Air Assault which they're screening, but that's not necessarily enough to compensate for their increased cost. The reason for their existence is to be a scout screen, and compared to Sentinels they are only 2/3rds as effective. The price increase means the 300 points which could have bought you 12 scouts now only gets you 8, and they're still Light Vehicles with crappy armor.

Colossus
These feel really confused to me, like they don't really know what they want to be doing. Are they a Firefight support unit? Then they're too slow to actually get into a position to provide support. Are they a shooting unit? Then their numbers are too low to avoid being suppressed easily (a single kill drops enough blast markers to suppress almost the entire unit.) Are they a solid Anvil unit? Then they are too fragile. The lack of Reinforced Armor means any MW hits at all inflict instant kills. They're pretty much going to be forced to Double to get where they can shoot anything, (even if unsuprressed) which makes their firepower too weak to hurt anything reliably.
Any role in which they might appear helpful is better filled by something else. Also, I hate that the two new robot units both start with C and are slow walkers. I always get the two confused until I double check which is which (Sure, Colossus means big, but Crusader could be anything)

Secutors
Don't like them. (I feel like some sort of Skitarii Ultra-Conservative, but I swear I don't hate change!) They're a very expensive upgrade (and thus unlikely to be worthwhile) that aren't fearless, (and so easy to destroy with combat resolution casualties) introduce rules difficulties with their conversion beamer, don't synergize particularly well with their parent unit (Secutors want to stay out of Heavy Bolter range, and want to be targeting High-Value/High-Armor targets with their MW) and just don't seem like they should be Terminator equivalents. Also the same problem with two new Infantry units whose names both start with "S."

Sagitarii
I can tell these are something you're really fond of, Vaaish. In theory I like the idea of firefight support infantry. I feel merging the Mole Mortars with their profile is a big mistake, although the Rapier inclusion isn't bad. A Mole-Mortar squad costs 225 points for 4 of them, which is a 125% point increase over their price when they were a separate formation. If they weren't taken before, they sure won't be now that they're vastly overpriced. They do, however, receive some benefits for those points, but like the Crusaders they're paying for things that don't help their role. A Mole Mortar formation's job is to stay out of the line of fire and sustain to take advantage of their Indirect Fire. the 3+ Firefight will then never come into play, but is a significant part of their price. The Tech Priest in the formation is an entire waste, since his LOF weapon and Engagement-related stats will have no effect. Leader is nice, but a light artillery battery shouldn't be taking blast markers with any regularity.

[i]Minorus[/u]
I don't see a huge problem with the speed increase on the base chassis. Like E&C I've always seen the Ordinatus as huge lumbering crawlers, and concur with his statement about every one being a custom-built effort (I always got the impression that the construction of an Ordinatus was something a Tech-Priest would do to demonstrate some new trick they learned, or show that they were capable of investigating some new secret of the Mechanicus.) Increasing the speed of the Minoris makes the Majorus seem even slower, which is a nice side effect, but I think the main advantage is the increased viability of a non-artillery Minoris formation. The 2QC+CLP formation is essentially an autoinclude, (a problem in and of itself) but I don't see much viability for a 10cm move direct-fire formation that has to start in the deployment zone. Any significant amount of terrain will make it very difficult for them to have an effect on the game.

You might want to double check that. The reaver is allowed because the datafax specifically states it can select from both the scout and battle titan lists while the ordinatus limits it only to the battle titan list which excludes it from scout weapons.


Sigil:
That's fine, we need feedback to make a good list. I will say though that Secutors and Sagitarii are known AdMech units, hence the inclusion and desire to make them useful additions. There really isn't a whole lot of information regarding what admech fields so when we have stuff that's named and described it becomes a priority to incorporate it in a useful manner. And blame GW for naming everything starting with "S" and "C"

Crusaders.
I understand the concern, however, they aren't in any way crippled in their scout screen role. They might be a hair underpowered which is why the next step is to give them AV6+ to make them a bit harder to take out. I've also played with spamming them and the 50 point increase didn't seem to seriously affect things. I don't feel that they are too far out of line at the moment though so changes are very limited.

Colossus.
Ok. These guys are primarily a garrison support unit. They are AV which helps cover unmounted infantry and they have a large amount of weapons for the unit size which bolsters shooting anything assaulting when they are on overwatch. As an added bonus they get a decent FF value\. Alternatively they can move up with troops and provide mobile cover. Right now they are fragile, but they just got their armor changed to 3+ and depending on how they perform, they may be getting fearless. The step after that is to drop the cost of the unit.

Secutors.
Read up on the fluff of these guys, if anything is a terminator equivalent, it's secutors. TBH, you are using these guys wrong if your plan is to take them as a primarily shooting force. The weapons are there to add a nice punch if your out of range, but their best aspect is a nice engagement unit with reinforced armor to soak hits and the leader attribute to shed BM when needed. I debated back and forth between fearless and not, but with all the other benefits they have including their weapons and durability I decided against it. I need to see how they perform on the table a bit more before I decide on any changes to them.

Sagitarii.
Your concerns with the mortars are noted and it's another point where I've gone back and forth with. Initially I thought it would be best to let the sagitarii swap 1:1 so they'd end up with two mortars per stand, but I was unsure if a total of 8 would be a bit much for the points. If the current stats end a problem I'll give each stand 2x mortars.

Of course now that you've said all of this, is it simply theoryhammer or have you had a chance to try anything on the table?

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-Vaaish

On Secutors and Sagitarii: How about swapping their weapons, so the Secutors get Plasma Cannon and perhaps MW FF (reinforcing their engagement support role) and the Sagitarii get Conversion Beamers (reinforcing their support role)?

The problem lies in the heading for the lighter weapons. They are designated as "Scout or Battle Titan Weapons." RAW, that could be interpreted to mean that a Reaver (Which is allowed to pick 3 "Scout or Battle Titan Weapons") is restricted to just the same 4 weapons which are supposed to go on a Warhound, and the Scout Titans can't take any weapons at all.. That's pretty firmly not the intent, which means the heading for the former implies that they are the only weapons Scout Titans can take, but that any Titan which can take Battle Titan weapons can choose from the "Battle Titan Weapons" list, or the "Scout or Battle Titan Weapons" list. If the intent is to exclude the Ordinatus from taking the Scout Titan weapons, that header needs to be redefined as "Scout Titan Weapons," and all Titans need to be ensured to properly contain Scout and/or Battle Titan restrictions.



Alright, fair enough Do you have the sources for their fluff? I'd be interested in reading what we do have. And apologize for not putting the blame on GW where it belongs It's a big pet peeve of mine when everything has similar names, as it's guaranteed confusion for someone who's never fought against them before to remember which units are which.


The durability increase might help a little, but I don't really see how a 50% points increase isn't a massive hit to their utility as a scout screen. Could I suggest perhaps removing the MW notation from their Extra Attack, which might be suitable justification for dropping their points total back down to 100, or at most 125?


If they're intended as a garrison support unit and infantry force-multiplier, wouldn't they make more sense as an upgrade for the hypaspists? As a separate formation of just 4, they're very vulnerable to breaking. Most other small-sized units tend to either have special rules, (ATSKNF) are War Engines, (SHT Co) are dirt cheap, (Sentinels) or aren't intended to be close to the enemy. (Hydra Co, Arty) I understand your intent a little better now (thanks ) and can see you're intending for them to play the same role as Hellfire Dreadnoughts in a SM list. (minus Air Assault/Drop Pod capability) My comment on their durability was actually intended to reflect their 3+ Armor statistic. It's very useful against most shooting, but given that their formation is composed exclusively of Colossi, MW shooting is horrifically devastating. Against combined formations (like SM with Dreadnoughts) MW hits will get allocated to the nearer units regardless of their composition, meaning that the Dreadnought armor is mostly required to stand up against the deluge of AT hits they'll be experiencing. A unit of Land Speeders which advance up to a Colossus formation and fire at it will cause 1.6 dead robots, giving them a greater than 50% chance of breaking them into ineffectiveness. Incorporating them with the Hypaspists would present an opportunity for an ablative screen and breaking resistance for the robots.


That still doesn't really help their excessive points cost :p Additionally, without any resistance to being killed by combat resolution, this big expensive durable close combat unit is very likely to find itself among the closest surviving units, and thus destroyed without recourse. Taking one also means that the host formation can no longer be transported in an organic Minoris, meaning the Hypaspist formation must be packed into Chimedons.this spreads out the formation a fair bit, and also requires the Secutor to be in a Chimedon near the front of the wave (so it has a hope of reaching CC range) which also makes it fairly likely to lose its transport. To be fair, the number and speed of Chimedons you get does allow you a fair amount of depth to your front if you keep the troops embarked, but that cuts out your shooting capability and makes you very vulnerable to MW/TK hits on the transports.



You still end up with a unit that's paying for two contradictory roles :p Packing the Mortars into the Sagitarii is going to result in them using them not as mortars, but as Heavy Bolters with Disrupt/Ignore Cover as preparation to lending supporting fire. That's pretty potent, sure, but it defeats the concept of the mortar. Can you elaborate on why you're opposed to the idea of a separate mortar formation?



I'd only just begun putting together my Skitarii list when the 'alternate' rules hit, and haven't played any games with the changes. I find myself having a hard time putting together a list I feel confident in with the new units. I should have some suitable proxies available soon, and once Finals are over I should be able to get a few games in.

New (ish) topic.

Unit types in this list - 48 (not including titans which add many hundreds more)

Unit types in codex marine list - 27
Unit types in ghaz's ork list - 25
Unit types in black legion - 36
Unit types in steel legion list - 31
Unit types in biel tan - 36
Unit types in L&TD list - 42

This list has more unit types than any other Epic list, and you're adding more units. Balancing it internally will be a massive task quite possibly beyond the skills of mortals.

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Good thing Vaaish has your help then...

While you have a point, most of the potentially unbalanced weapons combos should have been tested in the Titan list already, right? No formation can take more than four weapons, so the variables are the chassis and multiple units. Assuming that the weapons themselves are relatively balanced against each other (internal balance on the options) the task becomes easier since only the chassis needs balancing against the rest of the list and externally.

edit - the only real worry I'vew heard from the AMTL list is the CLP/Arty combos, particularly the CLP/Quake. Are there any others you can think of? Plasma Lord with multiple Plasma Cannon and Plasma Destructors?

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Yep, and it's actually farily accessible to boot.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/31191874/Dark ... s-Handbook p68 has the info on the Mechanicus Secutor

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Skitarii#.T1QAwIcgcSk this lists the Sagitarii, but I don't remember off hand which is the right refernce for them. I think it might be the citidel journal.

I can't find the last ATM, but it contains most of the robot info. It's called the Warhammer 40000 compendium.


simple enough. There really isn't a reason to label that section scout and battle titan weapons since the battle titans are listed as being able to select either.


My experience on the table has been that these are performing well in their intended role. They get a considerably firepower increase and CC boost from sentinels that dropping the FFMW shot won't affect. The stats for the melta are standard anyway and I don't like fiddling with existing weapons that work just fine. I would see their durability go up before the points drop.



Fluff wise, robots wouldn't be deployed as part of a hypaspist formation. They work in concert but separate from the infantry. I don't disagree that they are fragile if fire is concentrated on them which is why I'm entertaining the fearless rule but I did notice when using the colossus that there were usually bigger threats that came under fire. When my colossus got hit, it was when I'd moved them away from the demi-century unsupported. Stats wise there is some constraint as to what's allowed since they are described as basically dreadnought suits to the point of components being interchangeable with dreads. TBH, 200 might be a better price point for them even with fearless. It would have the added benefit of giving selections at the 150, 200, 225, 375 and 500 point ranges.


these guys aren't changing more until they have been play tested. Not everyone embarks their demi-centuries nor do many (if any) bother with the minorus transport on a demi-century. Assuming that they aren't const effective simply because you want to run them in a transport doesn't necessarily make them over priced or useless. A formation with two of them are gaining considerable capabilities with each stand granting leader. However, should they need a boost, the next change is to give them fearless.



We had separate mortar formations in the past and they weren't taken. ever. This is an attempt to give them some place by essentially making them a free swap depending on what you want your sagitarii to do. I don't think you are really thinking through the use of the mortars here. I think the result, if anyone bothers trying them, is that they can sit in FF range of another friendly unit and provide fairly distant non-LOS support on anything that tries to attack and still provide good support close in. Mortars just let them be a hair more effective against infantry as well as giving them far more range. Basically you are trading your AT shot for Indirect fire, Disrupt, and ignore cover by taking the mortars. That's pretty significant on a unit that can decide before a battle which to use.

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-Vaaish

by my count, including titans, there are 26 unit types. Some can take multiple weapons options, but it doesn't change the unit type. this compares to 33 in the codex marines including titans. We can of course reduce these by removing things like the lysander fighter and consolidating the orbital support.

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-Vaaish

Semantics aside, if you're not counting ordinatus minori as 13 different SHT's, and ordinatus majori as 16 different SHT's, then you're not counting correctly.

I'd note that I forgot to count razorbacks and dreadnoughts as two unit types each when I counted the marines too, but I still didn't come anywhere close to the over-abundance found here.

I didn't even include titans in the skitarii count as I've made the assumption that every single Titan config & interaction with the skitarii list is balanced... Balancing this list is an even greater challenge than balancing AMTL (something war gryphonnes has not achieved IMO) because you're working with a much less restrictive army list style and more unit types.

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Look, E&C, I get you are a little grumpy, but at the end of the day this discussion is doing little to help balance the list. Since i took the list, there have effectively been three units added which isn't even a drop in the bucket if you count every permutation of ordinatus and titan. Without limiting those options to set configurations there is no way to reduce the unit count by any significant amount. Even removing all other unit choices you are still looking at 29 different units by your account. I can see your point, but I disagree with your position and lets leave it at that. For now we will test and adjust to balance the list the best we can while adding what flavor we can and keeping people collections from being invalidated.

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-Vaaish

While I don't feel the change to the Ordinatus is too severe, I have to agree with E&C about the sheer number of new units. At the very least, the sudden influx of different units easily bumps the Skitarii back down to "Experimental" status instead of Developmental. Would it be possible to start with some more gradual changes first? Perhaps the Minoris speed change and the addition of the Sagitarii and Colossus first, before adjusting the Rapiers/Mole Mortars, Sentinels>Crusaders, Elimination of 3-strong Knights, Removal of Hydra battery, removal of extra Hypaspists upgrade, Secutors, and anything else I've missed? I feel like there's a significant amount that has changed in this one update, significantly more than is frequently seen between variant lists, much less development of existing lists.

Perhaps splintering a Legio Cybernetica variant list would allow for a vastly more robot-centric force, with some crossover?

EDIT: Wanted to point out I'm not trying to trivialize your efforts, Vaaish. I just feel a little uneasy at the drastic changes. Also a little bitter about my Sentinels and Mole Mortars not fitting in any more :p

The changes are no more drastic than the ones E&C supervised in stripping out the guard SHTs among other things, and take the Skitarii further down the path to having their own unique force, instead of red high tech Guard. Vaaish has made a point of trying to keep peoples collections valid, something that was a point of contention in the last major overhaul.

I'll admit that I was not terribly happy about the last overhaul at the time it happened, but in the end I feel E&C made the right decisions. Let's give Vaaish the same leeway, shall we?

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I don't think that the skitarii list was out of experimental to begin with. Even starting at version 1.13 and up there have been some fairly drastic changes each step of the way. Just look at the changelog.

Also, to be clear I do NOT see legio cybernetica as a variant list at this point. The fluff is clear that it is an extremely rare event when there are more than a few maniples present. However robots do provide a flavor to admech that I believe is essential to differentiating them from guard. Finally, we need to concentrate on the core skitarii list before variants are made. Now is not the time to be suggesting ideas for variant lists.

The core structure and units making the skitarii list have changed very little or not at all and when it comes down to it the only thing different is the addition of three units (four if you count crusaders despite basically being the same as sentinels) and some organizational adjustments.

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-Vaaish

The 2012 Compendium lists it as Developmental, so I assumed that was accurate

I wasn't suggesting spinoff lists as a good idea, just wanted to put forth the fact that not all Skitarii would have access to Legio Cybernetica units. Definitely agree that the core list needs to be completed first.

I've read through the links you've generously provided (I actually own the Inquisitor's Handbook, I'd just forgotten there might be applicable information in it) and trying to resign myself to change
For the Secutor (which I'd prefer to be renamed Myrmidon, since Secutor is just the initiatory rank in the Auxilia Myrmidon, and it's unlikely the lowest ranks would warrant a presence on the Epic battlefield) what about including it as an upgrade for the Hypaspist Tech-Priest? That would allow the cost to be lowered to the point it's practical, without having to reduce the statline.

Changing the Crusaders to AV will help their survivability some, but I still don't feel they adequately fill the role that Sentinels did. They're just a bit too expensive for cheap throwaway units, and they feel a lot more like the Praetorians than Sentinels. Reading the background does give me a better sense of what you're trying to integrate though Would it be justified to make them speed 25? The description of them as "fast and agile," designed for "quick, debilitating strikes" doesn't scream speed 20 to me, and having them be faster would aid their utility as a scout screen some.

Grumpy? No.
A bit miffed that literally every single opinion I've had has been overridden since I recommended Vaaish to take over the championship, based on where he told me he'd like to take the list, maybe.

Oh well. There's a reason the Siitarii list hasn't been balanced in all these years we've been working on it, and that reason was not "it's not got enough units". I wish you the best of luck getting it balanced for the supplement.

Developmental status simply means that there's an active champion and the list is being tested. So this list qualifies as that right now.

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