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Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC

 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:00 pm 
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Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Vaaish wrote:
I'd like to do a quick overview of where things are and where I'd like to see the lists go. First is the main Titan list. This list is pretty solid and I don't see many changes happening unless some glaring imbalance is found and needs to be dealt with. However, one sticking point is the God Machines rule. Right now it's to weak to make a difference and really doesn't have a place. I'd like to see this read:

"If any Scout or Battle Titan formation is destroyed, then any friendly formations within line of sight receive one blast marker."


I'm not too crazy about the God Machine rule to begin with and I like it even less if Warhounds are included.


I have to agree with DS on this. The God Machine rule just doesn't seem to jive with the background I've read, in that the death of one of their brother princeps seems to make titan drivers more angry/aggressive rather than sad/timid as a BM implies. Game-wise, the AMTL is always hampered by an activation disadvantage, so I'm not sure it's needed from a balance perspective either.

I'm sure it has been stated elsewhere, but since you're taking stock of the list I don't feel too stupid asking: what is the purpose of the God Machines rule? If it's there to put a check on a list that is too powerful, is there some way to accomplish this without a special rule? I can certainly understand non-titan formations getting a BM for seeing a god-maching die, and even more so (in the Skitaari list) if an ordinatus buys it, but I suspect that wouldn't have the desired effect if it just hurt support formations.

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:22 pm 
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Quote:
what is the purpose of the God Machines rule? If it's there to put a check on a list that is too powerful, is there some way to accomplish this without a special rule?


My thoughts on the rule were to make Warhound pairs more attractive and warhounds in general less of a suicide unit. The secondary function is to help armies that struggle against all war engine lists by allowing them to target titans that are easier to kill to help weaken larger titans by making them more susceptible to breaking and thus less capable of holding objectives to force a draw.

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The God Machine rule just doesn't seem to jive with the background I've read, in that the death of one of their brother princeps seems to make titan drivers more angry/aggressive rather than sad/timid as a BM implies.

Which books are you finding that in? I'd like to read through it. Currently, based on the Taros campaign, the loss of a titan, even a warhound, shocked those nearby and prompted their withdrawl. No information was given on the crews response, but the BM doesn't have to represent just the response of the crew. It could also be high command telling them to be more cautious or whatever other reason it would reduce their performance and perhaps eventually lead to the titans pulling back. in any event, I don't see the imperium throwing titans away without good cause and the possibility of the rest of the force taking a BM gives the player a good reason to think about how necessary it is to sacrifice a titan.

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Did the special rule on VP per DC of the WE make it in there?

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:45 pm 
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It did not.

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:47 pm 
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Was it judged unnecessary?

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:54 pm 
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I'm unsure if there was a full explanation listed, but it seemed a bit complex and unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:56 pm 
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IIRC, E&C said that none of the proposed VP rules made a difference in his test games.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:03 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
Which books are you finding that in? I'd like to read through it. Currently, based on the Taros campaign, the loss of a titan, even a warhound, shocked those nearby and prompted their withdrawl. No information was given on the crews response, but the BM doesn't have to represent just the response of the crew. It could also be high command telling them to be more cautious or whatever other reason it would reduce their performance and perhaps eventually lead to the titans pulling back. in any event, I don't see the imperium throwing titans away without good cause and the possibility of the rest of the force taking a BM gives the player a good reason to think about how necessary it is to sacrifice a titan.

Primarily Titanicus, but also Mechanicum, and Storm of Iron - I'm pretty sure there's a fair amount of titan action in the latter two. It has been a while since I've read any of them, so I can't provide exact references to relevant text.

To what end do players typically sacrifice their warhounds? Given that their job is scouting, an inherently dangerous mission, is this really a problem?

I still return to activation count here - even though a single warhound is a small points expenditure in a titan list, it's an activation that is sorely needed in turns 3 and 4. Sending it on a suicide mission would seem to pose as many problems as it might solve for the AMTL player. As far as making it possible to get more bang for the buck of concentrating on the weaker titans, I'm not sure it's necessary to gain a victory. Spread the objectives out, and an 8-10 activation opponent should be able to make it very hard on the AMTL by spreading them very thin. An opponent can handle the forge knights and sentinels while avoiding/hiding from the battle titans. So taking down a couple warhounds (say, using termies) has a lot of effect if the only other things left on the table are 2-3 battle titans. in other words, if the opponent goes for the objectives rather than the engine kill, there's only so much a few warlords/reavers can do, even if they're healthy.

Of course, experience can vary. I don't particularly like the "It's only IMO" disclaimers but consider it disclaimed anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:24 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Dwarf Supreme wrote:
Vaaish wrote:
I'd like to do a quick overview of where things are and where I'd like to see the lists go. First is the main Titan list. This list is pretty solid and I don't see many changes happening unless some glaring imbalance is found and needs to be dealt with. However, one sticking point is the God Machines rule. Right now it's to weak to make a difference and really doesn't have a place. I'd like to see this read:

"If any Scout or Battle Titan formation is destroyed, then any friendly formations within line of sight receive one blast marker."


I'm not too crazy about the God Machine rule to begin with and I like it even less if Warhounds are included.


I have to agree with DS on this. The God Machine rule just doesn't seem to jive with the background I've read, in that the death of one of their brother princeps seems to make titan drivers more angry/aggressive rather than sad/timid as a BM implies. Game-wise, the AMTL is always hampered by an activation disadvantage, so I'm not sure it's needed from a balance perspective either.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts. I honestly think the God Machine rule is unnecessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:32 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Vaaish wrote:
Which books are you finding that in? I'd like to read through it. Currently, based on the Taros campaign, the loss of a titan, even a warhound, shocked those nearby and prompted their withdrawl. No information was given on the crews response, but the BM doesn't have to represent just the response of the crew. It could also be high command telling them to be more cautious or whatever other reason it would reduce their performance and perhaps eventually lead to the titans pulling back. in any event, I don't see the imperium throwing titans away without good cause and the possibility of the rest of the force taking a BM gives the player a good reason to think about how necessary it is to sacrifice a titan.

Primarily Titanicus, but also Mechanicum, and Storm of Iron - I'm pretty sure there's a fair amount of titan action in the latter two. It has been a while since I've read any of them, so I can't provide exact references to relevant text.

To what end do players typically sacrifice their warhounds? Given that their job is scouting, an inherently dangerous mission, is this really a problem?

I still return to activation count here - even though a single warhound is a small points expenditure in a titan list, it's an activation that is sorely needed in turns 3 and 4. Sending it on a suicide mission would seem to pose as many problems as it might solve for the AMTL player. As far as making it possible to get more bang for the buck of concentrating on the weaker titans, I'm not sure it's necessary to gain a victory. Spread the objectives out, and an 8-10 activation opponent should be able to make it very hard on the AMTL by spreading them very thin. An opponent can handle the forge knights and sentinels while avoiding/hiding from the battle titans. So taking down a couple warhounds (say, using termies) has a lot of effect if the only other things left on the table are 2-3 battle titans. in other words, if the opponent goes for the objectives rather than the engine kill, there's only so much a few warlords/reavers can do, even if they're healthy.

Of course, experience can vary. I don't particularly like the "It's only IMO" disclaimers but consider it disclaimed anyway.


Again, I agree. The AMTL player is already hampered by fewer activations. Warhounds provide the vital role of claiming and contesting objectives in the opponent's half of the table. Take away this ability and I believe an AMTL player will be hard pressed to win on a consistent basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Titan Legions- Split from New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:03 pm 
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Quote:
Again, I agree. The AMTL player is already hampered by fewer activations. Warhounds provide the vital role of claiming and contesting objectives in the opponent's half of the table. Take away this ability and I believe an AMTL player will be hard pressed to win on a consistent basis.


I should point out that the rule doesn't prevent you from taking warhounds or contesting objectives using them on the other half of the table. It forces you to be a bit more cautious doing it or take a formation more resistant to being taken out. Saying that the rule takes away the ability to take warhounds is a bit of a stretch. It seems, though, that the primary complaint is low activation count which is spilling over to the god machines rule?

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 Post subject: Re: New ATML AC
PostPosted: Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Vaaish wrote:
My thoughts on the rule were to make Warhound pairs more attractive and warhounds in general less of a suicide unit.

Vaaish wrote:
It forces you to be a bit more cautious doing it or take a formation more resistant to being taken out.


I havent played this list and just read the thread but wouldnt the rule actually make a player either:

A) Play more cautiously to prevent the BM from destruction or
B) Play more recklessly throwing the warhounds into the enemy and out of LoS to prevent the rule from coming into play.

I dont think the result of the rule would always be A, I think B is as likely to occur.

Just my uninformed thoughts, take them as you will :)


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