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Legio Destructor 1.01

 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:17 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
AoC - how's this for a situation, you turn up at a tournament with a blind list and play 3 amtl armies. If the titan players play to suit their list the best you can achieve is 3 draws. Is that fun spending a day playing to try and get a draw 3 times against amtl? Will you come back?

1. Why would a Tournament Organizer allow that?

How would a tournament organiser stop it?

Walk over to each AMTL player's table and check whether or not they're intentionally playing for a draw??


Quote:
2. I consider most Epic games fun if I win or lose.
3. I would come again because chances are I won't play three AMTL again and if there was a chance I'd bring a Anti-WE list.

I don't want to design an army list with a hidden auto-win button.
That's just not fair on anyone IMO.

Quote:
But really most other people across the Globe has not ran across that issue. Hell I don't think there has even been a Tournament with 3 AMTL lists. I hear that other AMTL play to win even if they could play cheesy and take a draw. I find most Epic players are usually mature enough to not take a Cheese list and tactics.

Tournament players can be somewhat of a different breed... the EUK group had to put a gentle advisory note in their tournament packs about basing units sensibly after one of their committee exploited the basing rules to win games with horde armies, for example. :-P

And again, if there's no call to adopt a "don't play for draws" rule in the War Gryphonnes list, I won't implement one (Well, actually the current "God Machines" rule is exactly that, only it hasn't worked all that amazingly at disincentivising draws either).

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:22 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Not sure you answered the question mate. ::)

What question?

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IMO this rule won't effect me and I don't really think its needed, however if it was adapted to the AMTL WG list and that made it "good enough" in your opinion to be "the list" in the supplement then I'll go with it. ;)

If there's community desire to swap out "God Machines" for "AMTL count winning draws on VP's as straight draws" then I'll do it.

It'd take more than just adopting this rule to swap the prominences of the WG and LD lists in my supplement, however, as the WG list has other imbalancing or playstyle-inhibiting factors, such as the CLP for example (not inherently unbalancing, but its presence completely overshadows the Support Missile).

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:23 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Steve54 wrote:
AoC - how's this for a situation, you turn up at a tournament with a blind list and play 3 amtl armies. If the titan players play to suit their list the best you can achieve is 3 draws. Is that fun spending a day playing to try and get a draw 3 times against amtl? Will you come back?

1. Why would a Tournament Organizer allow that?
2. I consider most Epic games fun if I win or lose.
3. I would come again because chances are I won't play three AMTL again and if there was a chance I'd bring a Anti-WE list.

But really most other people across the Globe has not ran across that issue. Hell I don't think there has even been a Tournament with 3 AMTL lists. I hear that other AMTL play to win even if they could play cheesy and take a draw. I find most Epic players are usually mature enough to not take a Cheese list and tactics.

1 on what basis would the organiser not allow it? Too many amtl armies so you have to bring something else, indicates an issue IMO
2 its not about winning or losing but knowing you will not win based on the opponents list not his ability
3 so your solution is that players have to take anti-titan lists? Again indicates a problem, and you'll probably get 3 no WE opponents

Its not about being cheesy or immature, if the amtl knows his best way of winning is to play in this style and then he will get a draw if it doesn't work then that's sensible tactics.

The idea of GT lists is that any 2 lists will play the GT scenario and the players ability and dice will decide who wins and loses. A list isn't right if a tournament organiser has to make allowances for it or any other list doesn't stand more than a miniscule chance of beating it

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:23 am 
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You could simply make the AMTL player place his objectives a minimum of 60cm apart rather than 30cm. This would make this play style harder to achieve.


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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:28 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
My current proposal (Count all winning draws as flat draws) would incentivise the AMTL player to play for a win on the standard 5 Objectives,

I actually don't mind this and would definitely prefer this option to anything that unnecessarily restricts a balanced list (ie, stat changes to balanced systems/guns or weapon position restrictions that have been rejected by majority vote).

I also agree with AoC that if such a proposal were to make the War Gryphonnes list more appealing to a wider audience, it should really be "the list" for any supplement featuring a Titan Legion.

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:29 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
How would a tournament organiser stop it?

Walk over to each AMTL player's table and check whether or not they're intentionally playing for a draw??

I mean why would a TO allow someone to match up against three of the same army? Regardless if its AMTL I would think a TO should make sure some guy didn't fight three Cron lists or any kind? Unless there only one kinda of list to face?

I know Tournament players can be rough, but I find Epic (BFG etc) Tournament Players to be competitive but not cheesy about. They want to win with skills not army list quirks, basing issue or what not. Again this could be a Metagame issue * Shrug*


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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:29 am 
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Jstr19 wrote:
You could simply make the AMTL player place his objectives a minimum of 60cm apart rather than 30cm. This would make this play style harder to achieve.

Not really.

You only need to stand on one objective in the enemy's table half with a Warlord Titan to deny 3 victory conditions (BTS, DTF, TSNP).

Contest your own Blitz with something and that denies the remaining two victory conditions, forcing a draw.

Splitting up the objectives you place in the enemy's table half does nothing to prevent the "play for a draw" playstyle, and conversely may actually make playing for a win on victory conditions more difficult!

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:32 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
How would a tournament organiser stop it?

Walk over to each AMTL player's table and check whether or not they're intentionally playing for a draw??

I mean why would a TO allow someone to match up against three of the same army? Regardless if its AMTL I would think a TO should make sure some guy didn't fight three Cron lists or any kind? Unless there only one kinda of list to face?

Most tournaments use the "Swiss Tournament" system, which means that after the first round players are pitched against other players that have had similar levels of success or failure.

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Again this could be a Metagame issue * Shrug*

It probably is. That doesn't mean it's not an issue to address.

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:33 am 
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Onyx wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
My current proposal (Count all winning draws as flat draws) would incentivise the AMTL player to play for a win on the standard 5 Objectives,
I also agree with AoC that if such a proposal were to make the War Gryphonnes list more appealing to a wider audience, it should really be "the list" for any supplement featuring a Titan Legion.

If you want a Supplement to primarily (rather than secondarily) feature the War Gryphonnes list, I encourage you to spend a year of evenings writing one.

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:39 am 
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@Steve54: I think were not on the same page on some of these items?

I mean why, regardless of race list, would an OT match up 1 player with the same armylist 3 times in a row when (I'm pretty sure unless he's winning, might be a ladder thing were not on the same page on?) other equal choices are available. I mean Player A plays AMTL and loses or wins and then 2nd round instead of matching him with another AMTL player of the same rating match him with another player?

@Jstr19: Sounds good but I think E&C just pooped on your parade lol

@E&C: I think what I'm really trying to get at is "What does AMTL WG list have to do to be THE list in your supplement?" like a list of demands/requests. Because it seems(I could be wrong) that most people would rather have the NetEA Approved Current AMTL WG list as the main list then this Legio Des. thingy.


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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:47 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Most tournaments use the "Swiss Tournament" system, which means that after the first round players are pitched against other players that have had similar levels of success or failure.

That is kinda what I meant. I mean if AMTL are so good at moving up the ladder how would a person have to fight AMTL three times in the same Tournament? eh? :D

Evil and Chaos wrote:
If you want a Supplement to primarily (rather than secondarily) feature the War Gryphonnes list, I encourage you to spend a year of evenings writing one.

Umm I see your point and I think we all agree that you as the "guy" can do whatever you want. But I think the issues were having are:

1. When the rumors of this supplement started we(could just be me ::) ) assume that the AMTL would be the THE list. Unlike this other list that just came out of left field recently.
2. I think people have thought/feel that theses supplements are to grow epic but mainly focused on NetEA lists. So having the "Core" AMTL list be shunned or consider "un-balanced" by its AC and "Book Guy" is a little disconcerting to the rest of the community.


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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 10:57 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
I mean why, regardless of race list, would an OT match up 1 player with the same armylist 3 times in a row when (I'm pretty sure unless he's winning, might be a ladder thing were not on the same page on?) other equal choices are available. I mean Player A plays AMTL and loses or wins and then 2nd round instead of matching him with another AMTL player of the same rating match him with another player?

The Swiss System takes account of the level of winning score, VP's earned etc, so after the first round the tournament organiser doesn't generally have to intervene all that much to settle who plays who in subsequent rounds as players soon begin to separate out based on how well they're doing. It's not just win/lose/draw that's tracked.

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@E&C: I think what I'm really trying to get at is "What does AMTL WG list have to do to be THE list in your supplement?" like a list of demands/requests.

Demands eh? Okay, it should be:

1- More balanced than the Legio Destructor list.
2- More tactically interesting to play against than the Legio Destructor list.
3- Should not have a viable "play for a draw" auto-win playstyle available.
4- All weapons should be viable choices.
5- Fix other concerns too.

1 I've played LD myself already and I'd say it is currently a fail

2 From the reports I've had back in PM the most important note was that regardless of remaining balance issues the LD list was instantly more tactically interesting to play against than the WG list.

3 Both lists currently a fail.

4 WG list weapons that are IMO currently not worth taking: Support Missile (All flavours), Quake Cannon without CLP.

5 For example there's also an issue with weapon costing, for example it costs the same to take 3 Turbolasers as it does to take 2 Turbolaser and a Laser Blaster, despite the latter being simply better.

Some players downunder even refuse to pay the multi-weapons surcharge, which fixes the imbalance with Battle Titan weapons but unbalances mono-fit single Warhounds quite noticably.

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:03 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Most tournaments use the "Swiss Tournament" system, which means that after the first round players are pitched against other players that have had similar levels of success or failure.

That is kinda what I meant. I mean if AMTL are so good at moving up the ladder how would a person have to fight AMTL three times in the same Tournament? eh? :D

Why, because of all the AMTL players duking it out at the top of the ladder, sending some down to fight mid-ranking players in each round. :-)

Quote:
Evil and Chaos wrote:
If you want a Supplement to primarily (rather than secondarily) feature the War Gryphonnes list, I encourage you to spend a year of evenings writing one.

Umm I see your point and I think we all agree that you as the "guy" can do whatever you want. But I think the issues were having are:

1. When the rumors of this supplement started we(could just be me ::) ) assume that the AMTL would be the THE list. Unlike this other list that just came out of left field recently.

We're still many months from the supplement being printed. "Recently" is quite relative.

Quote:
2. I think people have thought/feel that theses supplements are to grow epic but mainly focused on NetEA lists. So having the "Core" AMTL list be shunned or consider "un-balanced" by its AC and "Book Guy" is a little disconcerting to the rest of the community.

*shrug*

The WG list will still be in the supplement, so it's not like I'm just brushing it under the carpet and pretending it never existed. I'm just going to be putting the list that I consider provides a more balanced, more tactically complex, gaming experience at the forefront. Right now, that list is the LD list.

The Supplements have to date only included NetEA lists, but that is not a hard and fast rule. Anyways, it's not like I'm developing the Legio Destructor list in secret or something.

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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:04 am 
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So I think my point stands that Steve54 comment about fighting AMTL thrice is highly likely especially if there winning so bad (via draws or wins)like you and others say. lol ;)

About the AMTL list ness....

*Sigh*

I don't think everything you want could get done by NetEA group at large so I'm kinda bummed. I think I'll just moap back to the Eldar board now...


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 Post subject: Re: Legio Destructor 1.01
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2011 11:06 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
I think I'll just moap back to the Eldar board now...

Please test the snot out of your Eldar Titan Clan list, and consider implementing a "May not win VP draws" rule; I need that list!! ;-)

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