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Carapace Multilaser vote.
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Carapace Multilaser vote.
Flogus
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:12 pm 
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Well, according the rules, the 1st blast marker is placed if attacker is in sight and in range of the target. Then, dices are rolled to determine the number of hits.

So even with AA-only, CML can lay some BM (if within range and sight), juste like AT-only formation can put a BM on an all infantry formation.

And I read nothing in the §4 that prevent me from doing that.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:14 pm 
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The advantage is that a 100% Firefight/CC Titan shouldn't normally be able to lay 'irritation' BM's at all... but the ground-attack multilasers upgrade avoids this drawback.

Just something to consider.

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Chroma
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Quote: (Flogus @ 25 Jun. 2009, 18:12 )

And I read nothing in the §4 that prevent me from doing that.

Flogus raises an interesting point here.

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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:23 pm 
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The advantage is that a 100% Firefight/CC Titan shouldn't normally be able to lay 'irritation' BM's at all... but the ground-attack multilasers upgrade avoids this drawback.


Flogus does raise a very interesting point. Changing the CML doesn't prevent it from laying the "irritation BM" at all which seems to have been the point behind the change to the CML in the first place. If that is the case, is it really a problem to leave the ground attack stats?

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 25, 2009 6:31 pm 
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That's a really interesting point...

doesn't prevent it from laying the "irritation BM" at all which seems to have been the point behind the change to the CML in the first place.


It wasn't the only reason I had in mind.

Reasons were:

stop it laying 'irritation BM's'
makes it slightly less powerful
simplifies the list further
the ground attack stats tend to get forgotten about anyway

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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:40 pm 
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I hate being sick... ok, while this is a really minute aspect of the Titan list and no matter which way it goes won't drastically affect how the list plays, I am curious as to how some of your conclusions were reached since they are at odds with my own experience.

makes it slightly less powerful

If I may, what lead you to believe it needs to be slightly less powerful if,
the ground attack stats tend to get forgotten about anyway

which brings up the question, is this common to forget? I don't usually forget what my titans have on them and while not amazing, the two extra shots makes the upgrade worth taking even against lists with little air power.

simplifies the list further

Does it simplify the list in any useful means? It doesn't add or remove special rules or make it any less complicated to play seeing that the vast majority of units in epic have multiple stats for weapons.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:13 am 
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Quote: (Vaaish @ 26 Jun. 2009, 16:40 )

I hate being sick... ok, while this is a really minute aspect of the Titan list and no matter which way it goes won't drastically affect how the list plays, I am curious as to how some of your conclusions were reached since they are at odds with my own experience.

I've simply found the Carapace Multilasers a no-brainer to go onto every Battle Titan I have, that at least implies an upgrade that is too good, or too cheap.

I'm pleased that we're down to really minor stuff with this list, with noone reporting balance problems or even issues with individual weapons anymore.




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zombocom
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 1:15 am 
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The Carapace Multilaser is different to any other titan weapon in that it doesn't take up an arm/carapace slot, so is "free" in terms of the space it occupies. Given this I think it should be restricted to AA only, as that is its role, whereas having a shot with it makes it pretty much a no-brainer choice.

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Onyx
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:21 am 
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Quote: (Flogus @ 26 Jun. 2009, 01:12 )

Well, according the rules, the 1st blast marker is placed if attacker is in sight and in range of the target. Then, dices are rolled to determine the number of hits.

So even with AA-only, CML can lay some BM (if within range and sight), juste like AT-only formation can put a BM on an all infantry formation.

And I read nothing in the §4 that prevent me from doing that.

As long as I can still do this then I have no problem with either setup.
I hope we're not going to try and make a special rule to stop this (goes against the simplifies list reason).

I guess the vote isn't really helping to settle the issue at roughly 50/50.

I used to forget weapon stats all the time so now I make a printout with all my units abilities on hand. It's amazing how many times I used to forget about Multilasers, Commisar attacks etc.  :blush:

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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:22 am 
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I've simply found the Carapace Multilasers a no-brainer to go onto every Battle Titan I have, that at least implies an upgrade that is too good, or too cheap.


I agree with you that it's a no brainer upgrade, but I don't think it implies the upgrade is too good or too cheap. I think that it more is related to the upgrade being the only available source of flak attacks and reliable on the board AA for the titan legions. Quite frankly, if you want AA (and who can really afford not to take it) you have to take the upgrade or take thunderbolts.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 4:50 am 
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Quote: (Vaaish @ 27 Jun. 2009, 02:22 )

I agree with you that it's a no brainer upgrade, but I don't think it implies the upgrade is too good or too cheap.

I think a lot of people would disagree with that.

A no-brainer IS when something is too good or too cheap.

If it is just AA then there is some small element of choice.  Yes, everyone needs some AA but sometimes its just one or two for putting some BMs on the aircraft.  And if you spend loads on CML and there are no enemy aircraft then you will be disadvantaged (as would most other armies that over-spent on flak).

If you get "free" shots (i.e. the CML AP/AT shots) as well as the AA then even if there are no enemy aircraft it is still probably worth it.  There's really no risk in taking the upgrade.

Up the cost to 50 and now its a tough choice again.  But now it can become over-costly for titan armies to buy sufficient flak if necessary. (Which is why I voted for 25 points AA only).
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Vaaish
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 6:54 am 
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A no-brainer IS when something is too good or too cheap.

It can also be when there are no other options available and necessity dictates taking the upgrade.

If it is just AA then there is some small element of choice.  Yes, everyone needs some AA but sometimes its just one or two for putting some BMs on the aircraft.  And if you spend loads on CML and there are no enemy aircraft then you will be disadvantaged (as would most other armies that over-spent on flak).

Even with the AP/AT shots there is still an element of choice. You may need AA but taking it on everything could soak the points for little return that could be spent on heavier weapons or some other upgrade. What you are saying works just as well with the original stats of the CML.

If you get "free" shots (i.e. the CML AP/AT shots) as well as the AA then even if there are no enemy aircraft it is still probably worth it.  There's really no risk in taking the upgrade.

The same could be said of the Marine Hunter or the IG Hydra. you get "free" shots (and better ones with longer range at that) with these as well as the AA and can still do something to make themselves worth it. Although these are twice or more expensive than the CML, I think that it is worth mentioning that all of them can be taken in formations that cost half as much as the minimum investment to take them in the AMTL list and unlike their counterparts, the CML's do not provide more units in a formation or extra activations.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 11:10 am 
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Quote: (Onyx @ 27 Jun. 2009, 02:21 )

I hope we're not going to try and make a special rule to stop this (goes against the simplifies list reason).

Not a chance.
Special rules are a last resort, and this is not a major issue.

I guess the vote isn't really helping to settle the issue at roughly 50/50.

At 50/50, the call is mine.

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clausewitz
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 2:42 pm 
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Quote: (Vaaish @ 27 Jun. 2009, 06:54 )


A no-brainer IS when something is too good or too cheap.

It can also be when there are no other options available and necessity dictates taking the upgrade.


The Necrons have *just* the pylon for AA.  Technically the Titan Legion also has the TBolt.  So its not correct to say no other options.  It IS correct to say one is much better value (CML>TBolts).

If it is just AA then there is some small element of choice.  Yes, everyone needs some AA but sometimes its just one or two for putting some BMs on the aircraft.  And if you spend loads on CML and there are no enemy aircraft then you will be disadvantaged (as would most other armies that over-spent on flak).

Even with the AP/AT shots there is still an element of choice. You may need AA but taking it on everything could soak the points for little return that could be spent on heavier weapons or some other upgrade. What you are saying works just as well with the original stats of the CML.

It works LESS well.  And since we are talking subtle differences and small points values I think that matters.  Relative scarcity of AA in the TL list should be one of the weaknesses of the list.

If you get "free" shots (i.e. the CML AP/AT shots) as well as the AA then even if there are no enemy aircraft it is still probably worth it.  There's really no risk in taking the upgrade.

The same could be said of the Marine Hunter or the IG Hydra. you get "free" shots (and better ones with longer range at that) with these as well as the AA and can still do something to make themselves worth it. Although these are twice or more expensive than the CML, I think that it is worth mentioning that all of them can be taken in formations that cost half as much as the minimum investment to take them in the AMTL list and unlike their counterparts, the CML's do not provide more units in a formation or extra activations.

Equally CML are on a platform that is very hard to kill, impossible to suppress (need to break) and does a LOT more stuff than an AA formation.  Cost is a big factor, if the Marines want to bring one Hunter the TL gets three CML, whose AA cover is likely to last the longest?
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Carapace Multilaser vote.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 27, 2009 3:03 pm 
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Quote: (Vaaish @ 27 Jun. 2009, 02:22 )

I agree with you that it's a no brainer upgrade, but I don't think it implies the upgrade is too good or too cheap.

There are lots of 'no brainer' choices in Epic - Hydra for russ and mechanised, chaplain for assault marines and terminators etc etc.

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