Okay, based on my most recent post, here is another go at the rules:

Imperator Titan  1800 points (WAG)

Special Rules:

An Army of One: The Imperator may be activated up to 3 times each turn. Instead of firing all of the Imperator's weapons, the player must choose which segment of the Imperator he/she is activating, from the following list: Right Arm, Left Arm, or Fire Control Center. Each segment of the Imperator may be activated multiple times per turn, but the total number of activations used by all of the segments cannot exceed 3.

Vast Stride: The Imperator is so massive and its gait so wide that most roads cannot accommodate it. Its enormous feet straddle lanes, ditches, and assorted roadside structures, while its weight leaves hude craterous footprints in its wake. The Imperator gains no bonus to its movement for being on a roadway.

Walking Bunker: When targeted by a barrage weapon and the center hole of a barrage template falls over the Imperator, the number of attacks directed at the Imperator is equal to the number total number of barrage points in the volley, not half the damage capacity of the Imperator as is common for other WEs.

Compartmentalized: When given the Marshall action, the Imperator regroups using 2D3 instead of 2D6, otherwise the Imperator marshalls as normal

The Imperator counts as 2 Titan formations for the purposes of choosing Support formations.

Type: WE
Speed: 5cm
Armour: 4+
CC: 4+
FF: 3+

Weapons:
  Left Arm
     Plasma Annihilator  90cm  2xMW3+  TK(D3), FxF
  Right Arm
     Hellstorm Cannon  90cm  10BP  MW,FxF
  Fire Control Center
     Defense Laser  90cm  MW4+/AA4+  TK(1)
     Barrage Cannon  75cm  3BP  indirect fire, FxF
     Tower Cannons  60cm  2xAP4+/AT4+/AA5+
     Anti-armour turrets  30cm  3xAP6+/AT4+
     Anti-infantry turrets  30cm  3xAP4+/AT6+
     Point Defenses  (15cm)  (small arms)  EA(+4)

Notes:
Damage Capacity 16, Void shields(12), Transport(16), Reinforced Armour, Thick Rear Armour, Inspiring, Supreme Commander, Walker, Fearless, Invulnerable, Infiltrator. Regroups with 2D3 instead of 2D6. May step over units and impassable or dangerous terrain that is lower than the Titan’s knees and up to 5cm wide.

Critical Hit Effect:
For each critical hit sustained by the Imperator, it loses one activation, to a minimum of 1 activation. When the Imperator can not lose any further activations, the Imperator’s plasma reactor has been damaged. Roll a D6 for the Imperator in the end phase of every turn: on a roll of 1 the reactor explodes destroying the Imperator on a roll of 2-3 the Imperator suffers one more point of damage, and on a roll of 4-6 the critical hit is repaired. If the reactor explodes, any units within 15cms of the Imperator will be hit on a roll of 4+.

E&C:

I'm not saying that the v3.12 version is weak. It just doesn't seem that great is the grand sceme of things. It can wipe out one small-to-medium formation per turn, but it can never really do more than that. Against large ork formations, it doesn't have enough firepower to cause much concern in a single turn, while the ork formation would be the favorite to win in an assault. Meanwhile, the opposing player can pretty much control what it gets to shoot at by waiting until it activates (even if it is the AMTL player's last activation) to make any risky moves.

Having played against it a few times, it doesn't seem like a good deal for the AMTL player.


Okay, based on my most recent post, here is another go at the rules:

13BP doesn't seem like nothing against an Ork Horde to me.

Having played against it a few times, it doesn't seem like a good deal for the AMTL player.

_________________
Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

I dunno.

That 13 BP salvo is only at targets within 60cm AND only hits half of what's underneath it unless you give up moving for the +1 to-hit (and doubling or targeting infantry in cover only makes things worse), added to the fact that grotz will probably still soak up most of the hits.

If you think about it, the Imperator only gets 10 shots (even if one of them is a big barrage). That's less than a stock warlord. I guess I just feel like the player ought to be rolling a lot more dice than that. Also, in assaults, 14 attacks seems pretty wimpy for 1250 points.

In the end though, remember that I'm not trying to say that the v3.12 version of the Imperator isn't a viable unit, I'm just wondering out loud if there was a fairly simple way of representing the power level of the previous rulesets' Imperator in the current edition - because some people are wanting that, even if it isn't possible (like me wanting to win the lottery).

I think this is a cool idea, but the problem is the same as all the previous attempts - this is going to need a lot more detail.  For example, what's to stop the Imperator from putting one of the weapon systems on OW and then moving with the other activations?  Is that okay?  The FCC on OW would allow the thing to move forward just a bit slower than normal but control a huge swath of the board.

Is there supposed to be a "No March Move" or "No Double Move" restriction as well?  Without it, you could march 15cm (probably using the Plasma Ann activation) and then sit and Sustain, or do a similar tactic with double move(s).

Vast Stride: The Imperator is so massive and its gait so wide that most roads cannot accommodate it. Its enormous feet straddle lanes, ditches, and assorted roadside structures, while its weight leaves hude craterous footprints in its wake. The Imperator gains no bonus to its movement for being on a roadway.

Walking Bunker: When targeted by a barrage weapon and the center hole of a barrage template falls over the Imperator, the number of attacks directed at the Imperator is equal to the number total number of barrage points in the volley, not half the damage capacity of the Imperator as is common for other WEs.

_________________
Neal

Neal, my thinking was that any of the segments could be activated twice or even three times in a single turn. That would represent those segments getting power diverted from other systems. The player wouldn't have to keep track of which segment had already activated. I figure as long as the segments aren't too overpowered, then that would be okay.

[I'm not married to this, since it is out of the norm of the game, but I thought this was a simple way of representing the SM/TL mechanic of allocating plasma to different systems - sometimes overloading one system at the expense of other systems]

As for being able to march in one activation, then reactivate to sustain fire, that's fine too. Really it just means that a -1 to-hit is built into all the weapon stats to make up for it. Also, if the titan does march, it gives up one of its 3 firing opportunities, so there is a trade-off being made.

Overwatch is a trickier situtation. I don't necessarily have a problem with having one segment go on overwatch, then using another activation to move the titan, but I can see how it would be very abusive. Maybe just make it clear that any subsequent action given to the titan clears any previous order. That way the titan would still be allowed to go on overwatch it, but wouldn't be allowed to stay on overwatch after it reactivates.

As an aside, does anyone remember the name of the titan legion that had a bunch of emperor class titans? I believe there was one that had 100 Imperator titans, but I don't recall the name.

Legio Ordo Sinister of the Divisio Mandati has 12 Imperators.  That's the most of any legion.  Only the largest legions have 100+ titans in total.

_________________
Neal

As much as I appreciate everyone's efforts to create Imperator stats for E:A, am I the only one who thinks it might be a futile effort? I personally wouldn't be upset if we never have decent stats that truly capture the feel and firepower of the Imperator (or MegaGargant).

_________________
"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Would it be possible to incorporate a penalty to hit, that only applies to the overwatching segment if the Imp moves?  It's one thought.

_________________
Set phasers on "fun"!

im just gonna say that the imperator is THE reason why i started guard in epic. it caught my eye at an early age back when i coldnt afford gaming and ive been into it ever since. i now have one painted and intend on using it as much as i can.

my second force will be the gargant mob, which will have a mega gargant as well. im a firm believer that they both should have rules that let them see play. its a great model, it stands the test of time, now lets get it on the table!

Agreed! Now how to make it viable... I think this thread is on the right track, but took a wrong turn somewhere. At the moment, it's far too complex. However, the imperator/mega-gargant counting as several activations is a good idea. Otherwise it's a huge point sink that can only grab one objective (and be a dead 'ard BTS) and shoot at one formation a turn, which isn't really all that.

How about something more like this (obviously presented terribly rough, not something you'd want to copy into an armylist ) for the activations:

The titan/gargant activates as engine + left arm + right arm + gun battery + perhaps something else. All parts activate once as normal, no four activations for the titan and putting them all into the main gun stuff. Only the engine/tracks/legs bit has a movement value (obviously preventing the thing from garrisoning). You can only apply one order to the titan/gargant per turn, each part uses the same order.

So if you picked advance, the engine bit moves once per turn, the other bits shoot once. Sustain and the engine bit activates but doesn't get to do anything, while the gun bits all get +1 to hit. March and gun bits activate while doing nothing, double, you get it.

Marshal and engage would be a bit iffier. If engaging with the engine, would the gun bits be allowed to a) shoot as normal b) engage (without moving, so restricted to anything within 15 cm or c) do nothing. I'd go with a), personally, but that requires a special mention. As for marshal, I'm not sure. Either having all the parts marshaling at a reduced value, or just having the engine or main frame or whatever marshal, then deciding whether you want the titan to move or shoot.

Or even make it so that when you activate the first part, you have to call out the order the titan/gargant uses for the rest of the turn. So if you wanted to marshal (and shoot) for example, you could:
1) Activate the plasma annihilator, saying you want to marshal and shoot this turn, then frying that warhound in range.
2) Activate the main battery, blasting that infantry formation.
3) After taking lots of fire, activating the minigun-thingy, marshalling the 2d6 and shooting.
4) Activate the engine and not being allowed to move.
I think I prefer this.

Overwatch would of course put the whole thing on overwatch in one go, letting each gun bit choose if they want to fire at an enemy or not. So only the plasma annihilator might react to the enemy titan moving, leaving the other guns for later.

Like I said, terribly rough. But I hope someone will get some use out of it.

For me it ranks up there with the 2nd ed vindicator in terms of sheer awfulness model wise.

_________________
If using E-Bay use this link to support Tac Com!
'Abolish red trousers?! Never! Red trousers are France!' – Eugene Etienne, War Minister, 1913
"Gentlemen, we may not make history tomorrow, but we shall certainly change the geography."
General Plumer, 191x

Heh.  Welcome to 4+ ongoing years of discussion on the Impy and Mega.

Basically, that's always what happens.  It starts out with "let's do something simple like X" and then gets silly.  The problem is that the mechanics are so tight with respect to the activation system that any change causes ever-expanding ripples of "what if this... what if that...".

_________________
Neal

Here is an attempt at a simpler solution, though I have no idea on how well it works.

The titan is divided into 4 sections:
Left arm
Right arm
Main batteries
Body

Each arm has a Big gun, the main batteries have the massive barrage attack and the body has a movement value and point defences (heavy bolters, battle cannons, that sort of thing).

Now for the simple bit, they all count as a single formation for blast markers and what not, and they all must take the same activation, though at different times.

For example you could activate the titan and choose to double.  You pass the activation test (on a 1+) and activate the body and the titan lumbers forwards.

You then pass control over to your opponent who does something.

Next you activate a warhound and do something with it.  You then retain with the main batteries (on a 2+ since it is a retain) and it shoots something with a -1 to hit due to the double the titan is taking.

Your opponent then spends an activation shooting the imperator and downs a few voids

Now you activate the left arm on a 2+ (-1 due to BMs), followed by the right arm on a 3+ (-1 for BMs and -1 for retaining), again both are at -1 to hit due to the overall double action.

The only problems with this idea are:

If you engage the titan will just sit there and do nothing since only the body can move, unless the enemy are stupid (or Orks) and wander up to the titan.

Also Marshalling could be problematic, with the titan marshalling 4 times in a turn.

_________________
Tyranid air marshal