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[Army List] White Knights Titan Legion

 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:34 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 04 2007,16:21)
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But I'll give the list over-all a trial I think. I assume because they're just 'sentinels' that they're the core ones not the armageddon pattern ones?

Cool!   :cool:   Yes, the Sentinels are the standard ones out of the rulebook; was more looking at the big guys than the little guys... *laugh*

For the enhancements, though, I can't really see myself taking the Experimental Reactor very often to be honest. Most of the time I'd rather just take an extra +1 to the weapon slots and leave it off if I wanted a faster Reaver, for instance.

Well, I got the idea from re-reading the OGBM list.  You could have a fast "assault" Reaver with the Experimental Reactor and have *three* weapons as opposed to just two in your setup...

Options!  It's all about the options!

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:48 pm 
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Well, primarily I just can't see the reactor being worth it when it causes you to take Dangerous Terrain tests every move. The idea of having to roll 12 dangerous terrain tests for my Reaver on a double rather sours me on the idea!  :laugh:

I might suggest making it +5 without a drawback. The drawback is you don't get a Level 3 weapon and it costs you 50 points. That way the only titan which could have both advantages is the Warlord.

As an odd aside: Was it intended that you could take both Legate AND a Vet Princepts on the Warlord? As it stands I could do this and potentially get a Warlord with 2 Plasma Destructors, 2 Laser Burners and eight Void Shields for only 900 points! Oh, and supreme commander, and leader twice (Though the extra doesn't count any more sadly!)


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:55 pm 
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Perhabs make it so that the +5cm speed upgrade costs you 1 VoidShield?

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:08 pm 
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I'm not really sure why it should cost you anything. You can only get one of those upgrades, really. The Ork list doesn't cost you anything for it, though they don't get the option to leave off weapons to move faster. My suggestion would be just make it be +5 CM and remove the option to leave off a Class 3 weapon to move faster. That way you can have Warlords moving 20 and Reavers moving 25, but only at the cost of some weapon flexibility and points compared to normal Warlords/Reavers in this list.

If it's really desperate that it cost more I suppose -1 Void Shield might be Okay. But generally I'd rather just take the 2 extra void shields for my assault titans then and march them on turn 1 rather then double them.


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:21 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 04 2007,16:48)
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Well, primarily I just can't see the reactor being worth it when it causes you to take Dangerous Terrain tests every move. The idea of having to roll 12 dangerous terrain tests for my Reaver on a double rather sours me on the idea! ?:laugh:

Twelve tests?

On a Double, it would be two tests (one for each move) with a re-roll each because of walker.

And I added the "risk factor", because it's experimental! ?*laugh* ?Wanted to inject a little "fun" in for the Adepts with iron rods up you-know-where! ?*laugh*

And yes, there is the intent to allow a Legate and Veteran Princeps in one Warlord... it's the King, baby! ?:blues:

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:30 pm 
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12 tests. Last time I checked warengines roll a dangerous terrain check for each starting DC, unless this got errata/clarification somewhere I haven't seen anyway!


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:36 pm 
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You always roll one dice for dangerous terrain tests.

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:40 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 04 2007,17:30)
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12 tests. Last time I checked warengines roll a dangerous terrain check for each starting DC, unless this got errata/clarification somewhere I haven't seen anyway!

Ah... no.  That's not how it works... but I can see why you'd be terrified of the Experimental Engine if it was!

1.8.1 Dangerous Terrain Test
Roll a D6 when you enter dangerous terrain, or when you start to move if already in dangerous terrain. On a roll of 1, the unit is destroyed with no save allowed, but the formation it is part of does not receive a Blast  marker.

3.1 WAR ENGINE MOVEMENT
War engines follow the same movement rules as any other unit. War engines that fail a dangerous terrain test suffer a hit (see the damage rules below).


There's nothing in there about rolling "once per DC", it's "Roll a D6 when you enter...", not "per unit", as I believe you've read it.

Hope that helps save some Titans for you, now they can go into the woods!   :D

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:42 pm 
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What about adding Rubble Claws to the upgrades? Would ignore dangerous terrain tests but inflict -5cm movement.

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:43 pm 
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(BlackLegion @ Dec. 04 2007,17:42)
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What about adding Rubble Claws to the upgrades? Would ignore dangerous terrain tests but inflict -5cm movement.

I'd forgotten about the Rubble Claws, not a bad suggestion!

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:46 pm 
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Ah. Thanks o.o Dunno why I was thinking that -_- I remember there was a long argument about it ages ago though! Anyway, thanks. I'll remember that next time!  :laugh:

How would you play Scout on Warhounds, by the way? Would their coherency be 20cm(Scouts), 15cm(3DC WEs) or 60cm(3DC WE+Scouts)? I realize the point is to allow the to garrison and give them larger ZoC (I think anyway) but how would their ability to be in coherency be effected?


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:47 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Dec. 04 2007,17:46)
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How would you play Scout on Warhounds, by the way? Would their coherency be 20cm(Scouts), 15cm(3DC WEs) or 60cm(3DC WE+Scouts)? I realize the point is to allow the to garrison and give them larger ZoC (I think anyway) but how would their ability to be in coherency be effected?

They would have a 20cm coherency, based on the scouts rule superceding the War Engine coherency rule.

And have fun in woods!  *laugh*

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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:57 pm 
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I'm pondering on the Quake Cannon currently. I'm thinking perhaps it needs to change to make the Deathstrike Cannon slightly more useful? As a suggestion I might say make the Quake Cannon Slow Firing but not the Deathstrike Cannon. That way you could choose between normal movement and firing only 1/2 as often, or -5cm movement and firing every turn. The other reason to do this is that if I wanted to field a 'book reaver' in your list, I'd almost always take a Vet Princept and give it a Quake Cannon instead of the MRL! Costs the same as the book reaver, and gives me a 3 BP MW attack instead of just 3 BP!


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:37 pm 
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I'm gonna make a list of suggested changes I think work well for the weapons in this list, and then why.

Plasma Guns: E&C's suggestion seems reasonable. I never understood the reasoning behind the supposedly larger, stronger and better plasma cannons having such odd stats compared to the Plasma Blastgun, making them dramatically worse on a double in order to facilitate a sustain. I'd much rather see them at the stats E&C suggested, as they'd then feel like a proper growth of weapons from one to the next. And with the change in the weapon loadout rules I don't see an issue with the support weapons being 'better' then the standard weapons unless they invalidate other support weapons.

Weapon heads: Not sure how balanced any of these are to be honest. I can't see the Deathstrike Head being very useful most of the time (It's functionally a Class 4 weapon after all, as you have to give up 2 Class 3s to get it, and only a Warlord can carry it!) it might be good on a 'sit on your blitz and never move' titan, but I can't see myself using it anywhere else. The CC head is similar, though with the potential to leave off a Class 3 mount and mount a special engine in the list I could potentially field a Warlord with a 25cm movement and one of these just for a laugh now and then. FF head is the only one of these I could see myself taking on any real regular basis. Not really sure how to fix that sadly.

Melee Weapons: Not sure how good the chainfist is currently, to be honest. As things stand I'd rather have a lasburner on almost any titan. 1 less attack, sure, but you also get the ability to engage at an extra 15cm range, and can absorb hits into your void shields. Chain Fist I think needs to come up slightly in number of attacks, perhaps to +6. The Power Fist probably needs to come up slightly as well, as this thing is remarkably hard to use as you have to get your titans right up in someone's face to use it and when you -do- manage that it should be thoroughly lethal. I like Chris' stats for it, +3 EA TK(D3). Averages 6 TK damage a turn or so. Plenty lethal against War Engines, equal to the Chain Fist against 4+ RA, worse against everything else. Wrecker's another bit of a problem. Right now I'd consider it about comparable with the level 2 weapons not as good as the level 3s, as it only gets 1 attack. While it IS very nice against smaller war-engines being able to potentially kill a 3 DC war engine fairly commonly before they get to attack, it's not very useful against anything -bigger- then this. If it's to remain a level 3 weapon I encourage an increase in lethality either by giving it a second attack or moving to TK(2D3) or maybe 3D3. 2D3 maintains the same max result, but gives it a better average result, making it more comparable to the power fist.

Gatling Blasters: E&C pretty much already covered these too. The 2x shot just isn't good enough, the scout deserves 3x shots.

Inferno Guns: My suggestion on these is simple. Scout weapon is 30cm BP 3, Ignore Cover, non-scout is 30cm, BP 3, Ignore Cover, Disrupt. This way they scale properly, and the advantage of the greater-then-warhound one is preserved without threatening the MRL for being a good general-purpose artillery item. The increase in BP on the Warhound version is to both make its firepower scale and to make it a reasonable alternative to the Vulcan Megabolter, as with only 2 BP it's not nearly as useful unless you take two.

Rocket Launchers: Scout should probably move to 3 BP to keep competitive with the VMB, and to make it scale properly.

TLDs: E&C has this one right as well I think, just do a Light and a Heavy. If you want to represent the 'triple' TLD then make a Super Heavy as a support version with some other advantage to it. Same range, 6 shots, or something. Don't think it's needed, though.

Vulcan Megabolters: The 6 shot variant is probably too good compared to TLDs and Gatling Blasters, should probably move down to 5 shots. You could continue the trend into this one and make it move to 4 shots and have its range go from 45cm to 60cm, but people might lament the lack of 'flavor'.

That's all I've got. I've never fielded any of the missiles (And I doubt I will any time soon), but over-all I like the concept here. Especially the OGBM-esque upgrade system for Titans, which I think fits them quite nicely in the idea that older titans with experienced crews would have been worked on/upgraded a lot over the years.


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 Post subject: [Army List] White Knights Titan Legion
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:49 pm 
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Vulcan Mega Bolters ... Gatling Cannons.... Turbo Lasers


The rule of thumb with these is that they should always be in sync with each other on their to-hit values and their number of shots, they are mirror images of each other that just alter the AP / AT values one side or the other of equilibrium. Their ranges should be the same across the different weapons too.

Obviously ranges, or numbers of shots can go up depending on the class of the weapon, but they should always be mirror images of each other.



If Chroma can have a new version ready for Thursday, I'll try and have a playtest game.





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