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Streamlined titan list
Markconz
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:07 am 
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(Chroma @ Dec. 02 2007,14:19)
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(rpr @ Dec. 02 2007,15:16)
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I really hate 1 DC war engine -knight. Why not simply an AV, stompa is bigger and is AV...

I agree, I hate the 1DC thing... either make 'em AVs or DC2 war engines like BlackLegion just proposed.

I'm in this camp too...

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Fredster4050
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:27 pm 
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Poop, now that Reaver MB and Plasma Destructors have been balanced/downgraded I shall not be using them.

Now you should sit on your blitz and hope that somebody is stupid enough to put his head in the open so you could shoot it with sustaining plasmadestructors. Bad thing is that other weapons have much shorter range than Destructor so you just have to hope that enemy makes his mistake to put juicy formation right in the face of your titan. So it is basically just VC when it comes to support weapons.


I have to agree, whilst I can understand the need to bring weapons into balance these stats don't fit with the PD fluff, why would you bother to take one?

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:39 am 
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(Nicodemus @ Dec. 04 2007,15:56)
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Poop, now that Reaver MB and Plasma Destructors have been balanced/downgraded I shall not be using them.

Now you should sit on your blitz and hope that somebody is stupid enough to put his head in the open so you could shoot it with sustaining plasmadestructors. Bad thing is that other weapons have much shorter range than Destructor so you just have to hope that enemy makes his mistake to put juicy formation right in the face of your titan. So it is basically just VC when it comes to support weapons.

I dont know does it have anything to do with gamebalance, but I have difficulties to make army with that list. It does not feel like "yeah, this is what I want to do".

Yes of course you won't be auto using a reaver VMB. At 6xAp3+/AT5+ everyone would use one. Because its really really good.

An alternative would be 6xAP3+/AT6+, so at least its only horribly good at mowing down infantry.

But at 5x you are still killing more infantry than a Gatling and only slightly worse at AT plus have great AP doubling fire.

Plasma wise - well what would you do with it?

If it is a doubling weapon of doom it doesn't really fit the long ranged nature of the support class plus is just a better version of the smaller ones.

And kill wise i would rather have it over the VC verses everything bar 4+RA targets or war engines. I'd kill 3 marines (or their rhino chassis friends) every time I fire it on sustain (or 2 on advance) vs 5/6's with a VC.

Fundamentally should a support weapon be something for charging forward or sustaining/advancing and laying down heavy fire?

The Plasma Blastgun is a deep strike warhound weapon for doubling and hitting targets in cover if needs be.


(Fredster4050 @ Dec. 04 2007,22:27)
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I have to agree, whilst I can understand the need to bring weapons into balance these stats don't fit with the PD fluff, why would you bother to take one?

And the PD fluff is what from which edition? :)

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:00 pm 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 05 2007,09:39)
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Yes of course you won't be auto using a reaver VMB. At 6xAp3+/AT5+ everyone would use one. Because its really really good.

That 6 shot VMB just shoutet "Nurgle Infantry Killer" so it made "yeah, that is what I want to use"-feeling. That non-existant situation when bad player like me has got enemy infantry so close to Infantry Killer Titan (enemy knows that I have Infantry Killer Titan so he should not put infantry too close to my IKT) then it really pays to have that one salvo to be worth those points (no way that somebody is so bad at positioning his infantry to let me shoot two formation with that). 45 cm is disadvantage, I would like to have infantrykillergun that shoots 60 cm like battle titan should, or so powerfull shortish range that it pays when enemy gives his units on you on a silver plate.

An alternative would be 6xAP3+/AT6+, so at least its only horribly good at mowing down infantry.


Works for me. I have always thought that AP guns should not be so good at killing AV:s.

But at 5x you are still killing more infantry than a Gatling and only slightly worse at AT plus have great AP doubling fire.

But it loses range and it is after all supposed to be Battle Titan gun, not some "just leetle more firepower than that Scout thingie".

Plasma wise - well what would you do with it?


I dunno. But stationary titan is just not my thing. And when weapon is so underlinedly (is that a word?) "Sit and Sustain" it is just not weapon for me. How are you supposed to use that? What other weapons with it?

You told me how to use slow-fire weapons: Double, Assault/firesupport and then Shoot again. That does not work with MW5+.

But if my Humble Opinion counts then I dont want any accuracy/killines downgrade when weapon gets bigger. So make it MW2+ slowfire and give it as many shots as is good. I just dont "like" (nothing else than gutfeeling or image) idea of scout plasma to hit basically everytime and Battletitan plasma to hit, what once in a blue moon (every third time (sixth if you double)?

If it is a doubling weapon of doom it doesn't really fit the long ranged nature of the support class plus is just a better version of the smaller ones.

If support weapons uses same restriction as assault weapons then idea of long range can be forgotten. I have allways thought that there are "normal Battle Titan Weapons" and "Big Battle Titan Weapons", not short range vs. long range. Support weapons being those bigger weapons. (Actually I would very much like to have assault weapons in "normal Battle Titan Weapons" and maybe Bigger versions of them in "Big Battle Titan Weapons").

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:24 pm 
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Yeah they can go in, they are in support because of the titan legions background. PLus if you get really good at assaults with Titans they are a knightmare :)

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:05 pm 
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Why not make the VMB up to 60cm 4x 3+/5+? So it matches the TLD and the Gatling Blaster? The three of them really seem to be basically like they should be in sync with one another. With the choice being 'Kill Tanks', 'Kill Infantry' or 'Kill Everything Slightly Worse'.

I do agree that the 'support' weapons should not by default be longer range then standard tactical weapons. Only that they should be in some way different then them or supplying some functionality they don't. The 'larger weapons hitting worse' does feel kinda strange, too. You could always make the Plasma weapons have shorter ranges. Say 45cm instead of 60cm. Claiming that plasma weapons lose their coherency at longer ranges or something. I dunno, but it'd give them a different purpose in the list, as a more assault-assisting weapon rather then the longer-ranged 'kill stuff while advancing' weapons.
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BlackLegion
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:17 pm 
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The VMB has a lower range becaue Infantry is generally more plentyful found on the table and is far easier to kill than vehicles. So the lower range is good to balance this out.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:24 pm 
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See, I find that view odd, as everything I've heard thus far has been essentially that AT attacks are generally better then AP attacks, as they allow you to kill off the transport vehicles from a unit of infantry reducing its functionality pretty dramatically. Cutting someone's move range in half in just a few hits is a pretty extreme change in their battlefield effectiveness after all.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:29 am 
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Note as other lists have developed I increasingly see this as a sub-set of the others, one where you worry about titans and don't get sidetracked by other options (in essence how me and a few others play titan armies). I would go with whatever consensus emerges on the currently contentious 'core' weapons.
My aim is to get it ready to go by the end of January family and work stuff permitting (as well as playtests) so may drop the knights as they will be included in other lists and I'm not sure many people have an idea about stats. Might as a result make assault weapons tactical but would have to try a few support/assault armed titans first. Also looking at bat reps I would probably try and figure out how to word scout weapons so if you have two weapons the same you have to be a pack, no mono armed single warhounds (so a pack (500 points) could have a warhound with two rocket launchers and one with two plasma, but you couldn't have a single (275 point) warhound with two mega bolters).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 7:38 am 
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(The_Real_Chris @ Dec. 23 2007,05:29)
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so may drop the knights...

Nooooo.....  :(

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 8:30 am 
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Well, does anyone know what their stats should be? Can't test something that doesn't exist (or does in a way that doesn't fit the list)! Besides they would still be in everyones else list.

But I am happy to test them though it would make playtesting go a bit longer for the list probably.

I just need someones idea!

Equal to or less than 325 points, preferably with a fair few models in the formation, kitted out for assault, esp. CC.

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ortron
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 10:50 am 
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G'day all,

Man i haven't been able to post for ages but have been able to read posts from time to time.

@ TRC

Mate i think what you have done so far is pretty good. I liked the idea raised in a previous topic that different types of weapons were suited to different styles of play, eg:

I gather people intend for laser wpns to be usefull for titans on the move. ( you could argue that the wpns have no recoil and hence are easier to keep on target)
On the other hand plasma requires extra power and hence is best when the titan is stable.
Therefore the "kinetic" wpns fit the middle ground, as they have recoil etc making it harder to keep on target for burts etc.. yet they don't sap the titans power levels as much. Of course this is Sci-Fi so there is no real reason to justify it too much.

I'd keep the VMB as you have changed it, and the idea of QC being 3BP MW, Slow fire is fine with me. The plasma will just take some testing.

I understand the CC weapons had to take a cut but do they all need to go?

Ok will post more later.. now that i have just got internet again much email to go through.
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 11:40 am 
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(ortron @ Dec. 23 2007,15:50)
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I'd keep the VMB as you have changed it, and the idea of QC being 3BP MW, Slow fire is fine with me. The plasma will just take some testing.

QC wise I'm likely to go with the suggested stats from Neal (here). Not sure if 120/3bp/mw/slow fire is good enough, he suggests 90cm/3bp/disrupt which lacks the raw power but is able to fire every turn.

CC weapon wise they are deliberately cut down to allow other lists (like Chromas) to have more of a assault emphasis and to in theory allow knights an area to operate. Except no-one seems to have stepped forwards with a workable idea for them.

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ortron
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:06 pm 
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My only gripe with it loosing MW is that it i think nearly every other direct fire explosive weapon in the game that has a similar physical size is MW. eg ork supa-gun, chaos decimator..

Do you think MW + Disrupt would be too powerful (ie, its one hell of a blast and the few survivors are likely to be dazed or KO'd for some time.)
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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: Streamlined titan list
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:53 pm 
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It wouldn't be that much of a boost as with MW there wouldn't be many survivors normally!

Another suggestion out there is to give it an OR attack, something like MW3+ TK1, so go with barrage (shell ploughing into ground) or direct fire (plough into target).

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