My edit was faster than your reply

Lol ninja-ed

Actually, yes it does. It means that when selecting weapons/units multiple people from multiple groups ignore that weapon/unit because there is a more optimal combination or more useful combination. In the case of the Plasma family, MW2+ is about as all around good as you get in Epic. The fact that it never or extremely rarely showed up means that despite the usefulness of the MW shot people don't find it valuable enough to consider when building a list.



What I'd LIKE to see titans be isn't exactly possible under the current list. I've mentioned that before but it's a conversation for a different time.

It's very difficult to quantify exactly the number of X units or shots a titan should equal. Regardless of weapons I expect that a low cost titan (think Reaver with free weapons) isn't going to do a whole lot more damage than a full russ company shooting while a maxed out titan (think 850+ points) needs to do as much damage as 1/3 of any other army hitting a single formation and maybe a bit more since Titans can only ever affect one formation per turn, barring catching multiples in a barrage.


Also note that when quantifying the number of Russes X plasma shots equals, you either need to halve the number of plasma shots to account for slow firing or base it on the russes output over two full turns of shooting.

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-Vaaish

Sf weapons aren't equal to fire over two turns. Epic rewards lots of damage done now. So if I can deliver 2 turns worth of shooting in one turn that is great. More likely to suppress and limit return fire or even break.

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It's far different. With the Landing craft attack the risk is far higher and much harder as it's then hung out in the breeze for counter attacks and even just a simple loss in resolution can wipe it out, rather than standing off 75cm away. It's really not the same outcome.

A titan with 2 PDs can fire one a turn plus any other weapon you arm it with, thus taking the guts out of the biggest threats to that titan.


I get the feeling that with all this debate on the PD that that may just change in the future.

Vaaish, is any of this discussion going to make a difference to your decision to leave it as is?

Hiw sbout a compromise with 5 shots on the PD?

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Let's take a 3 turn game then:

3 PDs on a Titan equal 60 and 30 Leman Russ respectively. You can shoot twice in 3 turns, which totals 120 and 60 tanks.

Divided by 3 turns that means either 60 tanks or 30 tanks for a 3 turn game. Which sums up to 6 and 3 Leman Russ tank companies in total. Points wise 3900 points and 1950 points respectively.

If you take 3 titans with 3 PDs each, and all last 3 turns, you've basically played with 11700 points

I don't believe it's that different. Basically risk is spread between multiple formations rather than concentrated in a single formation. Against some lists this is stronger and against others it's weaker. If you do a successful air drop you're likely going to have the same effect on the enemy as shooting from a distance. In both cases you'll attack where you can minimize the likely response so it's not probably your entire air drop is going up in smoke the next turn. It's also not probably that an opponent will be capable of breaking EVERY formation in that drop in one go to prevent any retaliation.



It probably will. My goal is to make the PD useful but not so useful that's all people take. What I'm seeing right now is that folks like the concept of powerful titan shooting but they don't like how that plays out on the table even if we see the titans losing. In Matt's game it seemed that there were a lot of enemy units sitting out in the open for the titans to peg which is the ideal situation for using any of the MW stuff.

I feel this is partly psychological since E:A leans more toward maneuver and engage than shooting and it's more palatable to have an opponent use multiple formations to cause high damage than a single expensive formation.

I think that games will eventually swing back to a single PD combined with either the GB, LB or PC. I also think that the PD could go down to 5x shots instead of 6x. Four shots and +15cm range is just too little for 75 points and reducing it to 50 points messes with the other 50 point weapons.

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-Vaaish

I agree - you're absolutely correct that people find it more palatable to take damage from multiple units rather than just one large one, and that's definitely a factor in the perception of Titans as a whole.
What makes the Triple Plasma Destructor almost unique though is that if you look at the maths behind it, it's not like being hit by multiple formations at once, but rather by an entire army; hence the '60 Leman Russ' comparison (or like 40 leman russes if you save ammo for next turn ).



Great, the willingness to consider adjustments is appreciated, thanks.

I'll post some maths on the 5 shot or 4 shot version shortly.

I don't have an opinion on the weapon's profile, this is just maths.


Reaver - Triple Plasma Destructor [825 inc Surcharge]

If Plasma Destructor was 75cm 2+ macro 5 Shots

Firing all:
[] 15 shots
[] 12.5 hits
[] 12.5 Predators killed or
[] 6.25 Landraiders killed
(equivalent to 50 leman russ battle cannons)

Saving Ammo (Firing 2, saving 1 for next turn):
[] 10 shots
[] 8.3 hits
[] 8.3 Predators killed or
[] 4.1 Landraiders killed
(equivalent to 33 leman russ battle cannons)

If Plasma Destructor was 75cm 2+ macro 4 Shots

[] 12 shots
[] 10 hits
[] 10 Predators killed or
[] 5 Landraiders killed
(equivalent to 40 leman russ battle cannons)

Saving Ammo (Firing 2, saving 1 for next turn):
[] 8 shots
[] 6.6 hits
[] 6.6 Predators killed or
[] 3.3 Landraiders killed
(equivalent to 26.4 leman russ battle cannons)

Hope that helps.

Actually, no it doesn't.
Vindicators in the Marine list, Ogryns in the Steel Legion list, Kommandos in the Ork list, Harbinger in the Chaos list.. I could go on but I don't really have to. The point is made.
(And this is not a request for all the players that love to use these rarely seen units to leap to their defence There is nothing wrong with these units, just that they are not often taken)

It's really best not to try and poke holes in certain situations like this.
Once the Deathstrike missed the Ordinatus, all out attack was by far the best policy. Of the 4 Plasma Destructors that were on the board, 2 of them managed to fire once each over 3 and a half turns (and that includes one in the 4th turn). Keeping the Reavers broken was far more obvious than trying to hide. They never made it onto my side of the board. I certainly did not set out to give the Destructors as many targets as possible.

I hold to my view that 4MW shots @ 2+ with 75cm range and slow firing is fine.

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I don't think we'll agree on this point. As a final note, ask yourself when would you pay 50 points for one extra shot if you already struggled with low activations in your list?



Sorry, I wasn't trying to poke holes. I was just making the observation that the PD had ideal targets to shoot at. Cover modifiers really help to cut down the effect when combined with doubling titans like I usually see.

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-Vaaish

I have my doubts about the comparison as a whole though for more than general information. Titan weapons tend to put out more hits on average than the Russ battlecannon and russes tend to have lascannons to boost a bit. IIRC if we just compare the battlecannon alone and call that a russ, even 3x Laser Blasters or GBs run somewhere around the 20 Russ mark while other weapons like the volcano cannon fall much lower due to the single shot.

_________________
-Vaaish

Yep, I think the issue here Vaaish is that they give you armour saves and hit on more "normal" stats, PDs don't (unless RA). Also I think Matt's example is one of 75cm exchange of fire not at 45cm with the extra Las Cannons.

I do like the EpicUK model of making it 3+ to hit. That means your orders will effect your chances to hit. In my experience titans have to spend a lot of time doubling to get to better positions. It also means getting behind the titans is more important as they have to advance to swing the weapons to bear.

Saying that high firepower titans are completely dependant on the terrain. Lots of fire corridors, being able to see over terrain or through it makes a massive difference.

Looking at the latest bat rep it looks very different to the tables I am use to which of course use area terrain as well that the titans can just ignore. download/file.php?id=11781&mode=view