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Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:25 am 
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Ok squeezed in two epic games and one AI games on Sunday :) Yay for a break from work!


Nids .

-Dominatrix, gaunts, 3 trygons,
-Harridan, 4 gargoyles
-Nexus, gaunts, 2 exocrine
-Warriors, gaunts
-Genstealers x 8
-Hierophant
-Hydraphant

Note this was very titan heavy but that's ok I wanted to test them out.



Ulthwe

-Black Guardians, Seer Council support platforms, war walkers
-Guardians, support platforms, 3 wraithguard
-Guardians, support platforms, 2 wraithguard
-3 Falcons, 2 Firestorms
-3 Falcons, 2 Firestorms
-3 Nightspinners
-3 Nightspinners
-Phoenix
-Phantom with fist, pulsar

(Note that Ulthwe were 150 over 1/3 on WE/AC because of Phantom, but this was because I encouraged the ulthwe player to use it instead of his more typical selection (he thinks eldar titans aren't worth it in 3K games) just to see how it went, and we missed the point balance until halfway through first game. I don't think it was a catastrophic problem in any case.).  


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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:51 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 17 2007,09:34)
QUOTE
What about the super heavies in front and right? Misses from list.

Yes, I was just adding up and found very good explanation for why I got so murdered...   :O

Racing to fit 3 games in an afternoon, we appear to have had a substantial miscommunication about how many points we were going to play... the disturbing bit is I didn't notice until just now  :(   Also he relies on me to keep him up to date with army lists changes which have swung about a lot with eldar.

Damn...

Ah well here's how 3K of bugs go against about 3.5K of Ulthwe... in pictures cos no point doing a report  :D :

GAME 1:

Setup



Turn1



Turn 2:
Phantom being destroyed after it killed the hierophant


Avatar killing lots of bugs



Turn 3 where I get gunned down in a final charge...

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:01 am 
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GAME 2

Turn 1 - swinging harder to the left with the bugs in a left hook.


Turn 2 - continued


Turn 3 - petering out against the numbers again...

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 11:09 am 
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Damn that is annoying. Lesson learned - take time to double check lists for reports!!
Grr.

As for the armies. That 3 guardian hosts sitting on the Eldar blitz on overwatch is a tough nut to crack for CC troops - unless you have artillery or decent shooting. Overwatching Wraithguard and platforms inflict a lot of damage and then the Wraithguard are just a superb ablative shield. Plus the avatar arrives just in the nick of time to really make things tough for any assault attempt.

I've been trying to use bugs without  bio-artillery just to see how they go, doesn't seem to work too well...  Anyone else tried lists without them?

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Chroma
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 12:39 pm 
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Great looking armies and pics, Markconz!

Thanks for showing everyone what it takes to beat Bugs... more points!  *laugh*   :D

What did you think of the 8.2 changes?

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 1:14 pm 
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(Chroma @ Jul. 17 2007,11:39)
QUOTE
What did you think of the 8.2 changes?

Fantastic, I think they should go in the handbook...  :devil:

Lol, actually I do like how things are going in general.

I found myself wondering about the philosophy behind the WE weapons though?

-What is the reasoning behind why hydraphants don't get a bio-cannon attack anymore - all hydraphant (if using old hierophant models) will have a biocannon, and hydraphants are supposed to have one too. I'd like to see it put back.

-Hierophants have two biocannons now? Why is this?

-Why does the harridan have twin biocannons? Seems a bit  too good shooting for this to me. I'd just make it how it used to be (I'm sure it wasn't this good before?)

-Exocrines - used them in several games now. I think they are a 50 point beast not a 75 point beast.


Still getting my head around the instinctive rules. Hoping text or concept can be made a bit simpler somehow.

Also was concerned at just how easy it was to suppress and break (instinctive) the bio-titans.  Doesn't seem to fit them. Or for that matter the charging genestealers (my question on SG about overwatch)... charging genestealers shouldn't break and run just because they are getting shot at - remember Space Hulk!  :;):   Makes me think again that instinctive should allow engage action.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2007 2:41 pm 
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Last thing that Tyranid list needs is a large WE with long range weapons.


I find it ironic that you criticise these weak biotitan cannons but remain reliant on dactylis which are really powered shooting attacks.

I think a simplified version of Chromas weapons idea might be the way to go given just how uncertain tyranid ranges are ( ie similar to how eldar or gargant weapons work).

Eg. take two for each titan:
-Biocannon,
-Extra big claw thingy
(in addition to a couple of normal CC focused attacks)

I recommend leaving decisions like this to the player rather than invalidating older models and scratchbuild potential through seemingly random design choices on models. Just make sure that the overall emphasis is still on close combat rather than shooting and it will be fine. Biocannons are hardly anything to write home about - compare them to a normal turbolaser. If necessary they can be downgraded (as I recommend for the Harridan).

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Markconz
 Post subject: Batrep: 3K Nids 8.2 vs Ulthwe 1.8
PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:46 am 
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(Hena @ Jul. 17 2007,16:13)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ Jul. 17 2007,16:41)
QUOTE
I find it ironic that you criticise these weak biotitan cannons but remain reliant on dactylis which are really powered shooting attacks.

I like Dactylises ... I always liked them (in SM/TL2 as well) ... I like the model (yes, I'm weird) :D. But any point on how to downgrade without removing the Distrupt I'd like to see.

But they looked like a plucked chicken lying on its back throwing eggs!  :;):   I have 16 of course...

But no I can't think of a way of downgrading them either...  :(


I recommend leaving decisions like this to the player rather than invalidating older models and scratchbuild potential through seemingly random design choices on models. Just make sure that the overall emphasis is still on close combat rather than shooting and it will be fine. Biocannons are hardly anything to write home about - compare them to a normal turbolaser. If necessary they can be downgraded (as I recommend for the Harridan).

Bio cannons are very good. They are more effective than battle cannon, but with shorter range. However with move 25 - 35cm it's not that great a problem.

I did suggested a separate set of weapons for Hierophant earlier. I would not however like to add long range fire to Hydra... It's also a balance/design thing. The amount of long range fire needs to stay down.

Biocannons are on a titan though - not a normal tank. Compare them with any titan weapon, half the firepower and less range. Furthermore the balance/design thing works works exactly the opposite to what you say. A single biocannon on a large warmachiine is far less of a problem than many more for the same points on smaller critters (eg heirophants). Certainly there is not good enough reason to invalidate older model ranges (the only available) or scratch builds.

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