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Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9634		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  nealhunt [ Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:02 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
I'm done.  Until it has a major overhaul, there's not even any point in testing it any more as far as I'm concerned.  The Nid list is every bit as bad as the Chaos list when it had unlimited Decimators and Sacrifice system for summoning daemons.

That 3000 points Chaos list chock full of MW, Ignore Cover barrages?  Shut down in 2 turns.  By the end of the second turn, Nids had backed the entire army save one formation of Raptors fighting for the Nid Blitz into a section of the board 30x45cm.

Concentrate fire?  Sure.  Do you think this is enough concentrated fire to perhaps kill a single Warrior swarm:
Feral on Advance
Feral on Double
Decimator on Advance
Decimator on Double
Retinue w/ Havocs firing ~14 OW shots
Swiftdeaths sniping exposed Warriors
Decimator on Sustain Fire
Decimator on Sustain Fire
Swiftdeaths sniping exposed Warrior

All but the last couple barrages hit a minimum of 6 targets.  Should that, maybe, kill a single swarm?  It didn't.  It got close but failed.

Here's another one:  A Retinue with Havocs moves to support range and fires at a Hydraphant.  A formation of 5 Chosen, Daemon Prince, and Obliterator assault.  That's almost 1000 points of units used to their optimum offensive capability.  I crunched some numbers on it.  It averages about 6 points of damage.  In other words, it likely won't kill 1/3 of its own points and doesn't even break the formation.

Yet another:  50 and 75 point activations will virtually never be balanced, let alone 50 and 75 point teleporting activations.  Nodes are probably the single most broken part of this list.  At the beginning of the third turn tonight, the Nids held or contested every single objective, most with multiple synapse formations.  Total synapse count was 17 on the board, 4 dead.  I swear if I hear one more person say you can stall against the bugs I will crawl through the internet and choke you.

By the way, the only other models in the dead tray besides those 4 synapse creatures were 4 gaunts and a Hydraphant which we just took off the board even though it didn't die.

Here's another tidbit:  DC3 WEs have a name for the Tyranid army - snacks.  You know what happens when a Node spawns Raveners?  It has a 55cm radius around it that it can assault.  A DC3 WE is highly unlikely to completely eliminate 2-3 Raveners in an assault.  That means even with the experimental anti-token-assault rules, every Nid in support range will get full support fire.  Half a dozen nodes and Spores for them to spawn with... think about if for a while and see if you're not horrified at the insane possibilities.

I've read all the recent batreps and despite boards with field of fire equal to the middle of a wheat field, using bad swarm composition, not optimizing objective positions, not using nodes to their full potential, and half a dozen other consistent minor errors (like inefficient use of Lictors), the Nids are still competitive.

Tyranids are 8-0 here.  That's 8-0 with trading out commanders, multiple debriefs and "what if" sessions, lists optimized just to kill Nids, and a handful of "do-overs" to try out the results of different actions.  None of the games were even close.

The list is broken.

====

Nodes are a major problem.  MAJOR.  They should be gutted in effectiveness, possibly removed entirely.

Out of coherency assaults are broken.  They should be removed entirely.

I'm almost convinced the Hydraphant is still too cheap.

Massive swarms are impossible to counter.  There is simply no reasonable amount of firepower that will whittle down a 40-unit, unbreakable, regenerating formation.  Minimum needed to adjust that is 5cm coherency among the synapse group and removing the out of coherency assault.  I'm just about to the point I would accept an arbitrary max swarm size.

I'm also pretty much to the point I would have no objection whatsoever to burning down the Unstoppable rule and starting from scratch.
Author:  Chroma [ Sat Jun 09, 2007 5:47 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes

(nealhunt @ Jun. 09 2007,05:02)
QUOTE
I'm done.

Wow, just got in, it's late, and I'm tired, so I won't comment yet... but, wow.

I really thought that Chaos list would *devour* the Tyranids.  What was their force comp?

More to come...
Author:  The_Real_Chris [ Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:49 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Tyranids can be sta* *gasp* *choke*.
Wow, worse than the playtest chaos? Thats saying something, that list had reliable near wipe outs of the enemy nearly every game.
Other fixes to bear in mind are to allow Tyranids to pick up blast markers (and other fixes to unstoppable) and only give 'em one withdrawal move.
Author:  Hojyn [ Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:00 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes

(nealhunt @ Jun. 09 2007,05:02)
QUOTE
Nodes are a major problem. ?MAJOR. ?They should be gutted in effectiveness, possibly removed entirely.

I'd say remove them. There are too many ways to abuse them.

Other possible (and less radical) solutions : keep only GSN with a 0-1 limit (or 0-2) ; give Mindless to both types of Nodes (this and the removal of out of coherency assaults should solve most problems).

Out of coherency assaults are broken.  They should be removed entirely.

I have no problem with that.

I'm almost convinced the Hydraphant is still too cheap.

If it is, it's not by much, though. I haven't tried it yet, so I can't say for sure, but I'd say it's mostly OK. +25 points, perhaps?

Massive swarms are impossible to counter.  There is simply no reasonable amount of firepower that will whittle down a 40-unit, unbreakable, regenerating formation.  Minimum needed to adjust that is 5cm coherency among the synapse group and removing the out of coherency assault.  I'm just about to the point I would accept an arbitrary max swarm size.

I'd be OK with that too. I don't see what's wrong with having a limit to the number of units a synapse group can control.

Fluff-wise, I don't think a Tyrant or a group of Warriors have the ability to control hundreds of gaunts, at one point their heads would simply burst from channeling all that psychic energy.  :)

As I said in another thread, how about giving a "swarm" value to each synapse group and limiting the number of units they control based on that "swarm" value and on the respective brood value of each unit.

I wasn't aware of it when I first posted my suggestion, but it seems this (or a similar system) has been tried in previous incarnations of the list. Could someone perhaps dig it up and/or explain why it was dropped?

I'm also pretty much to the point I would have no objection whatsoever to burning down the Unstoppable rule and starting from scratch.

I think we should try other possibilities first, because this rule is the defining element of the list. Dropping it would mean giving a completely different orientation to the Tyranid army.

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done, just that it shouldn't be done yet.  :alien:
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Nodes are a major problem.  MAJOR.  They should be gutted in effectiveness, possibly removed entirely.

I agree. Remove them.

Out of coherency assaults are broken.  They should be removed entirely.

I agree.


I'm almost convinced the Hydraphant is still too cheap.

I never use it.

Massive swarms are impossible to counter.  There is simply no reasonable amount of firepower that will whittle down a 40-unit, unbreakable, regenerating formation.  Minimum needed to adjust that is 5cm coherency among the synapse group and removing the out of coherency assault.  I'm just about to the point I would accept an arbitrary max swarm size.

I agree, 5cm coherency for Synapse and OOC assaults should go.

I'm also pretty much to the point I would have no objection whatsoever to burning down the Unstoppable rule and starting from scratch.

I propose that Tyranids be allowed to pick up Blast Markers as normal.

They wouldn't be allowed to break or become surpressed, but enemies would be able to get +2 assault resolution on them, which is a massive advantage for Tyranids right now.



-------------------------


I also want Mycetic Spores removed, as they're blatantly overpowered (And judging by my recent poll, almost noone here realises this).
Author:  Soren [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:34 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Remove the nodes. Never liked them.

If you removbe the spores you will never again spawn Hierodules or even a tyranid tank in rare cases.

If you remove out of coherency assaults, Trygons feel to get useless. Even the Infiltration of gaunts gets fixed to some point. Maybe we should give it a try?
Author:  Markconz [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:55 am ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Hmm you must really have been trying to break the list.  We haven't really done that enough perhaps.
Author:  Dave [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes

(Hena @ Jun. 09 2007,02:00)
QUOTE
Nodes. Drop LSN and GSN as such. Instead we can use the similar principle as Eldar (a little different from the french suggestion). Replace one objective with Synapse Node.

I like that idea of nodes a little better than the current interpretation.  Nodes popping up in the middle of a battle never really struck me as fitting wit the fluff.

The Wraithgate method seems a lot better.
Author:  Reaver [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
I've always hated Unstoppable - it always seems to be totally against the ethos of E:A. Blast markers are what sets the game apart from others. Blast markers are also what prevent players taking too many big formations - they get suppressed easily. Unstoppable totally avoids this.
I've not really thought his through yet, but why not have Nids affected by BMs as normal, but make formations with (living) Synapse creatures in Fearless?

Regards,
Reaver
Author:  Zzzap [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes

(Reaver @ Jun. 11 2007,14:12)
QUOTE
I've always hated Unstoppable - it always seems to be totally against the ethos of E:A. Blast markers are what sets the game apart from others. Blast markers are also what prevent players taking too many big formations - they get suppressed easily. Unstoppable totally avoids this.
I've not really thought his through yet, but why not have Nids affected by BMs as normal, but make formations with (living) Synapse creatures in Fearless?

Regards,
Reaver

I read your comment as only the synapse creatures being fearless, which I would agree with.

It seems that Hena may be reading your meaning as the entire formation.

I also agree with your assessment of Blasts markers, E:A and the Unstoppable rule. BM's are a core mechanic that "Unstoppable" breaks. There are so many problems it creates that I don't believe it can be balanced well.

There should be other ways to make you feel you are fighting an alien race without making you feel you are playing a different game.
Author:  Lightbringer [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Has the answer been there all along? Could we not explore giving bugs TSKNF??

After all - isn't the root of all this the fact that the bugs know no fear?

It would make activations harder (1BM = 3+ to activate) but it would certainly make for an elegant solution ruleswise.

Lightbringer
:cool:
Author:  Zzzap [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes

(Lightbringer @ Jun. 11 2007,15:46)
QUOTE
Has the answer been there all along? Could we not explore giving bugs TSKNF??

After all - isn't the root of all this the fact that the bugs know no fear?

It would make activations harder (1BM = 3+ to activate) but it would certainly make for an elegant solution ruleswise.

Lightbringer
:cool:

Elegant indeed! You are correct in that the real root is that Tyranids know no fear.

What a grand idea. And perhaps right under our collective noses all along.
Author:  Reaver [ Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Broken Tyranids and Possible Fixes
Zzzap, thanks for leaping to my defence, but sadly for me Hena was right, and I was just being a bit thick as usual...

But I really like the ATSKNF idea... How about independant formations and formations containing Synapse creatures benefit from it, but unaccompanied formations don't? It would be a pretty decent compromise, and would be more effective for 'Nids than Marines, because of the larger formations they can have.

Regards,
Reaver
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