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[Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9351		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 01, 2007 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
Greetings!

I'm looking at pulling together some of the latest ideas and putting out v7.4 of the list.

What do people feel are critical changes/additions/improvements that should be included in this interation?

Things I'm looking at so far are:

Tyranid AA
Gargoyle costs/stats
Carnifex stats
Bio-Titan crits

What else is important?
Author:  Markconz [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:13 am ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
I largely agree with Hena's list.

1. Combined Carnifex - yes
2. Trygon to 25cm, no infiltrate and 100 points. - yes
3. Removal of flying warriors. - yes
4. BTS and WE synapse 1/2 DC instead of 1 or Full DC. - maybe.
5. Synapse Group and spawning. - I would prefer a more elegant solution if possible.
6. Dominatrix and Supreme Commander. Again this would be for the list. "You can purchase more then one Dominatrix, however only one of them can be designated as the Supreme Commander [others will have Commander ability instead of Supreme Commander]." - I think I'd just make Dominatrix 0-1 for tourni list.
7. Biovore. Could be changed to 30cm range and indirect fire. Would represent fluff a little better. - yes, (would represent fluff a lot better  :;):, and it's worked fine in last 3 games I've played).
8. And autokill critical to Hierodules section. -yes.
9. Regen. - Don't think this needs changing, these creatures are very slightly tougher, not a problem IMO.

Other issues:

1. IMO the synapse range should be worded to prevent the moving out of 15cm. In situations where they don't fit, then either a) must be placed as near as possible or b) removed. I think I'd use A and handle the removal next turns start point. Reason for this can be found in http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....y191055
-some work needs to be done on when units can move out of synapse, when they are removed etc.
2. Vituperator should have FF4+. - no opinion.
3. Gargoyles:  15cm AA6+, brood 2, 25 points. This has been ok to give some limited AA protection, including to forward elements of the army. Suicide clause not necessary IMO.   (Spore mine ideas so far have sounded nice in theory but haven't worked in practice IMO, except as very limited 'dactylis defenders' (both DTT and LV format)).
4. Zoanthropes - have been using them with the AP4 30cm, 15cm MW5+ FF, Armour 5, no AA.  So far so good.
5. Bio-titan crits:
Critical Hit Effect. The bio-titan is critically wounded. Roll a D6, on a 1 it thrashes about wildly in blind rage and any unit within 5cm is hit on a 5+ with the hit counting as a MW attack. On a 2-4 it gushes ichor from a deep wound and loses another DC. On a 5-6 it suffers major haemorrhaging and loses D3+1  DC. -This has had a good reception in our group, which has just expanded to have 4 tyranid players as of last weekend! Happy times  :D

I'm sure there is something I'm missing...  ???
Author:  Markconz [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:33 am ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

(Hena @ May 02 2007,08:19)
QUOTE
I would leave the whole AA thing out of it just now and keep it as a separate list of modifications (name it say AA-xx) modifications. This would be to make the list stable enough for tournaments (this is important to me anyway). Since the AA mods is not something that is balanced and still trying to find it's shape and size. Also I still don't like the whole Gargoyle as AA thing :).

You have it the wrong way around - if it was not for tournaments leave it out, but if it is going to be used for tournaments then you need a 'good enough solution' in there for now.  At least gargoyles actually works in terms of giving the army some limited AA, and are balanced in that they can defend multiple elements of the army instead of just dactylis.

I would like to see ongoing testing of Gargoyles and various Spore Mine ideas, but something that actually works ok should also go in the list for now so it can be used for tournis without a list of mods.
Author:  Markconz [ Wed May 02, 2007 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

(Markconz @ May 02 2007,11:13)
QUOTE
5. Synapse Group and spawning. - I would prefer a more elegant solution if possible.

Could you elaborate this slightly. What exactly you'd like to change?
It seems like a lot of wording to add here... sorry I can't see an easier better solution though  :blush:  

Re doms: I just hate the 0-x restrictions. Much more elegant to allow taking multiples if possible.

Supreme Commanders/Big Brain Bugs should be rare IMO (and have been in the fluff and previous editions). Really what is the justification for more than one per 2-5K force?  

9. Regen. - Don't think this needs changing, these creatures are very slightly tougher, not a problem IMO.
I disagree. IMO the Hierodules have too great a chance to regen damage.

Yes we've discussed this before  :D  I am against round down because it breaks Jervis's golden rule of consistency 'either every time you round up, or every time you round down in a set of rules - and epic is round up). Removing regen sounds harsh... I just haven't found these 3 DC critters regen a problem. I guess Chroma will have to make a decision on this one...


RE moving out of synapse range: Yes. But I'm looking to see whether others agree on this or not. If so then, I'll try to do better worded thing.

Well I don't disagree - but I want to playtest it. Word it as you say and I'll give it a go.
Author:  Markconz [ Wed May 02, 2007 10:12 am ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

(Hena @ May 02 2007,09:03)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ May 02 2007,11:45)
QUOTE
Supreme Commanders/Big Brain Bugs should be rare IMO (and have been in the fluff and previous editions). Really what is the justification for more than one per 2-5K force?

To me it's just that Tyranids should not have anything that there is just one. Also I hate the 0-x restictions :D.

In earlier incarnation (SM/TL2) there was max 1 per 3000 points. So in that sense 0-1 is very similar. Reality is though that you are not going to spend more than 1 dom max in the 3-4k point games as Dominatrix eats too much synapse allowance anyway (eg. 4k game, you have 1250 for synapse and 2 doms would be 900 points...). In 5k that would be 900 points out of 1500 so one might consider it, but it would be risky.

It was 1 per 2K in Epic40k so I guess a case could be made for multiples.  :)  However as you say - is someone really going to spend such a massive chunk of their synapse on two of them at <5K?  If it is almost never going to happen why not just make it 0-1 and leave the multiple doms for larger games  (where by general consensus in my experience, 0-1 restrictions are multiplied by every 5K of points or part thereof)?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed May 02, 2007 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus
1. Combined Carnifex.   - NO, there is no model.


2. Trygon to 25cm, no infiltrate and 100 points.  - Only if the Trygon gains something else to represent its ability to tunnel.



3. Removal of flying Warriors. - YES.



4. BTS and WE synapse. 1/2 DC (round up) instead of 1 or full DC. - I agree it needs to be changed.



5. Synapse group and spawning. I'd like to see following added to the list part. "If both Tyranid Warrior units die, spawn value is decreased to 1d3+1. If Tyrant dies, spawn value is decreased to 1d3." - Too complex, but I agree in principle. Perhaps consider fixed rather than random spawn
values.


7. Biovore. Could be changed to 30cm range and indirect fire. Would represent fluff a little better. - AGREED.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed May 02, 2007 1:04 pm ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

(Hena @ May 02 2007,09:42)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ May 02 2007,11:33)
QUOTE
You have it the wrong way around - if it was not for tournaments leave it out, but if it is going to be used for tournaments then you need a 'good enough solution' in there for now.  At least gargoyles actually works in terms of giving the army some limited AA, and are balanced in that they can defend multiple elements of the army instead of just dactylis.

Humhum. I think that the Zoanthropes for AA are good enough for now. I've used them sufficiently much as is. Meiotic spores and such are the ones needing work.

We've been through this several times now... Zoanthropes as AA is just about the single least representative form of Tyranid AA that we could come up with.

Meotic spores, or even the silly Gargoyle AA proposal, are both more inline with the Tyranid's background.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Wed May 02, 2007 1:28 pm ]
Post subject:  [Discussion] Tyranid pre-7.4 focus

(Hena @ May 02 2007,13:14)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ May 02 2007,15:04)
QUOTE

(Hena @ May 02 2007,09:42)
QUOTE

(Markconz @ May 02 2007,11:33)
QUOTE
You have it the wrong way around - if it was not for tournaments leave it out, but if it is going to be used for tournaments then you need a 'good enough solution' in there for now.  At least gargoyles actually works in terms of giving the army some limited AA, and are balanced in that they can defend multiple elements of the army instead of just dactylis.

Humhum. I think that the Zoanthropes for AA are good enough for now. I've used them sufficiently much as is. Meiotic spores and such are the ones needing work.

We've been through this several times now... Zoanthropes as AA is just about the single least representative form of Tyranid AA that we could come up with.

Meotic spores, or even the silly Gargoyle AA proposal, are both more inline with the Tyranid's background.

Possibly. But

1) It's tested and relatively balanced.
2) It works.

None of the other ways proposed are that. And until there is one that we can say that this is about it and lets tune to work properly, I wouldn't change the list.

AA is a huge part of the list. It cannot be replaced by whim (irrespective whether that's right or wrong).

I know Zoanthrope AA has been tested, and is relatively balanced.


But it's not representative of the Tyranid race, from the universe of Warhammer 40,000...


It's representative of some other alien race, who happen to have a lot in common with the Tyranids, but which have creatures called Zoanthropes which are extremely dissimilar to those in every other iteration of the 40k universe.

S'no whim.
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