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[Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
No Winged Warriors 65%  65%  [ 17 ]
Winged Warriors, Free, Armour Reduction 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Winged Warriors, Pay Points, Armour Reduction 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Winged Warriors, Pay Points, No Armour Reduction 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Winged Warriors, Free, Armour Reduction, Gargoyles Brood (2) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Winged Warriors, Pay Points, Armour Reduction, Gargoyles Brood (2) 8%  8%  [ 2 ]
Winged Warriors, Pay Points, No Armour Reduction, Gargoyles Brood (2) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Something else (explain below) 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 26

[Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
Chroma
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 2:19 am 
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I added "winged" Tyranid Warriors to the latest edition of the Tyranid list and it has caused some controversy.  I don't believe the Winged Hive Tyrant has caused much problems and is actually rarely used, but the ability to be screened by Gargoyles is seen as a problem with Winged Warriors.

Some people have suggested bumping Warriors up to 20cm movement as standard, and, other than that making them unable to garrison, few people seem to have a problem with that.

So, why does the addition of *another* 5cm of movement, and a reduction in armour from that state cause so much trouble?  I don't see the Winged Warriors as replacements for the Harridan and Vituperator as they can be used for quite different tasks.

To me, that reduction to 5+ armour is pretty brutal, even with a Gargoyle-screen, but some think the Warriors should pay points for this ability.  As well, the Gargoyles are seen as being on the border of "too good" at Brood (1).

So, vote and let's discuss it!

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:11 am 
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I also voted no, but I'm fine with 20cm movement (though haven't playtested it to examine it for problems). Gargoyles should be brood 2 if they actually become AA.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 5:29 am 
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I voted that they should stay, but you should have to pay points for them. personally I don't think that more then 25 points is necessary to decrease their likelyhood of getting fielded in large quantities...

I'm not really seeing the serious reason people are so unhappy about the idea, myself.

Let's compare, say, a Leman Russ Company to a unit of Gargoyles lead by Winged Warriors. At present you could field 30 gargoyle stands and 3 winged warriors for the 750 of a Leman Russ Company. Both move the same rate, the Russ have significantly longer range (Having 30/45/60cm ranged weapons), fantastically better armor saves, substantially better firefight numbers and the same Initiative. The main advantage the Tyranids have is their lack of blast markers and ability to regenerate dead stands. Which while good I don't think is sufficient that it should offset the difference in power there.

Assault Marines have 30cm movement and again dramatically better melee capacity and comperable firefight and better armor saves. Again, the 'nids only real advantage seems to be their ability to ignore blast markers and regenerate.

I'm just not seeing where this whole deal with the fact that nids can move so fast is such a huge problem. Guntrukks in the Feral Orks list allow them to redeploy very quickly and easily. Space Marine transports are part of their core abilities. Virtually every race in the game has high-speed units capable of moving across the battlefield in a single turn, many of which are significantly faster then the 25cm of the Winged Warriors. Now, maybe I'm missing something and this is game-breaking... But I'm not seeing how. Though I do agree that the faster move speeds combined with the ability to avoid being picked out SHOULD cost them some points.
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Charad
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 7:22 am 
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I voted for no. First, tyranid list is versatile enough. And that speed upgrade allows them to be in engage range while being 30cm away for spawning boost. Also speed makes them to be in range of guaranteed 2nd turn assault after one march move.

Leman russes and gargoyles ain't very comparable and their speed isn't same...

And assault marines are fielded in formations of four stands, that has a downside enough.

I think that gargoyles are too superior to fellow gaunts but I think that if raised to brood 2 is too rough. My only issue with them is their save, they don't deserve any armour...

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thurse
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:24 am 
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I voted no, for the reasons Hena and Charad mentioned.
Playtests showed that a slight increase in mobility benefits tyranids a lot, especially as the size of the formation is up to the player
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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 9:30 am 
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I voted for pay and reduce armour. I have not used winged warriors but would like if possible to find a way of getting them in the list.

How about this.......

Cost, +50 points per group, reduced save to 5+ but only increase movement to 20cm plus jump pack?

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Lionel
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 11:41 am 
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First sorry for my english

Second:
I vote for no... this is the end of harridan.
Don't change brood cost of the Gargoyles
And give 20cm move to the tyranids warriors (like termagaunts and hormagaunts)

Thanks
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:01 pm 
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If there are to be no winged warriors, then I'd have no winged Tyrants too.

It's senseless to have one without the other.

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Pulsar
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:28 pm 
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i voted for Winged Warriors, Pay Points, Armour Reduction, mainly because i think that Tyranids fluff wise have them, so there for we should find a way to make them work.
But in saying that they should not unbalance the lists, maybe winged Warrior and Tyrants could also have to have Gargoyles Brood (2) because of there reduced size they find in harder to regenerate dead stands.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 1:14 pm 
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(Hena @ Mar. 27 2007,12:06)
QUOTE

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 27 2007,14:01)
QUOTE
If there are to be no winged warriors, then I'd have no winged Tyrants too.

It's senseless to have one without the other.

From a gaming point of view it's not. Fluff is another matter (but I'll be happy to break it :D).

Ahhh, the traditional 'representional of the 40k universe game' versus 'abstract game' argument... we havn't done this one in at least a week. :D


PS: I think Brood(1.5) would fix Gargoyles.




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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discusion] Winged Tyranid Warriors
PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 3:00 pm 
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Warriors are not as fast as Gaunts in the background or in 40k, so they should not be as fast as Gaunts in Epic.

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