Tactical Command
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Safe spawning, winged warriors
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8897		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  thurse [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors
Hi!

It's a bit 2 topics in one, but the 2 are a bit linked...

Some remarks concerning the spawning rules.
Does everybody think the bonus to spawning (+1D3) when a formation is far from enemies is justified?
It quite rarely occured in our games before, but when it happens, especially with fast units with important movement value, it seems too much.

That leads me to the next point : winged tyrannid.
We played 2 games were all common brood creatures were gargoyles, led by winged warriors.
It really seems overpowered :
- with a high movement and jump pack, these formations can, after one action, be in engage range of every enemy formations.
- with 30cm move ( 60cm withdraw ), it is easy to get the +D3 to spawn.
- gargoyles are brood(1) but are better than termies and hormies, which makes spawning even better.
- I can't see why someone would get a harridan/vituperator over winged warriors, because of WE sniping.

Cheers
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(thurse @ Mar. 12 2007,16:38)
QUOTE
Hi!
Some remarks concerning the spawning rules.
Does everybody think the bonus to spawning (+1D3) when a formation is far from enemies is justified?
It quite rarely occured in our games before, but when it happens, especially with fast units with important movement value, it seems too much.

I think it's fine; you can still fail the Spawn test, if you're jumping way back to get away from the enemy, it's going to take you another action to get back to where you want to be, it's, on average, 2 extra Gargoyles back. ?With a Spore and max rolling, such a Swarm *could* get back 9 Gargoyles, but it could also just get 3.

I tend to see lots of Spawning checks failed and that the enemy usually vigorously pursues Synapse that tries to get away to spawn.

- with a high movement and jump pack, these formations can, after one action, be in engage range of every enemy formations.
And hanging out in the breeze for all the nearby enemy formations to shoot up or clip assault. ?Every army has "Fast Attack" formations that can really zip and get stuck in fast, but if they're left out there all alone, they tend to get chewed up pretty quick.

Could you give us an overview of the forces you used and fought against in this "Winged Horror" scenario?
- with 30cm move ( 60cm withdraw ), it is easy to get the +D3 to spawn.

The Winged Warriors have a 25cm move, not 30cm, so that's not getting out quite as far.

- gargoyles are brood(1) but are better than termies and hormies, which makes spawning even better.
The also cost more points (especially if using the AA version), but some Brood creature has to be the best in its "type"... I'd consider bumping them to Brood (2) depending on how the AA thing goes.

- I can't see why someone would get a harridan/vituperator over winged warriors, because of WE sniping.
The Harridan has better attacks, is faster, and has better armour.

I've found the 5+ armour on the Winged Warriors is a serious Achilles' Heel, particularly when exposed to cross-fire or snipers. ?I don't find them to be a "no-brainer" choice at all.

I'm glad to listen to more arguments/discussions on the topic though!
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors
Make Gargoyles Brood (1.5)

Warriors are overpowered, whether with wings or not, because they can hide amongst all those little gaunts.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 12 2007,16:54)
QUOTE
Warriors are overpowered, whether with wings or not, because they can hide amongst all those little gaunts.

But those 'Gaunts just melt away when clipped or fired heavily on, leaving juicy Synapse waiting to be plucked... at least that's what happens to mine most times!  *laugh*
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(Hena @ Mar. 12 2007,17:00)
QUOTE
And actually now that I'm thinking about it, winged nexus swarm?

It's allowed... haven't seen one yet though...

I usually have the Winged Tyrant leading Haruspex/Malefactors... Warriors can get "sniped" out of that kind of swarm.
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors
I haven't played for a few months (damn the lack of player and time) but I would use a winged Nexus, with a bucket of gargoyles.

Use the warriors as synapse and the tyrant to lend some heavy hitting in close combat.

Also, hopefully, being a single AV target in an Inf swarm the tyrant might be lucky enough to avoid being shot at (unless a russ company has nothing else to shoot at "Right these 20 heavy bolters and 10 battle cannons at the swarm and these 10 las cannons at that sheepish looking flyrant" :D )
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(thurse @ Mar. 12 2007,16:38)
QUOTE
Some remarks concerning the spawning rules.

What I'd actually like to include in the Spawning rules is something like "-1 spawning point for each dead Synapse Group member".  

That would tone down Warrior Groups and the Nexus Group a little, and give a slight boost to the WE Groups.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(Hena @ Mar. 12 2007,21:08)
QUOTE
This would lead the Nexus to have very strange values. If both warriors die, then the lone Tyrant would have 1d3 instead of 1d3+1. Warriors are unfortunately needed as they are only synapse infantry.

I'm not sure what's so "strange" about that.  The Hive Tyrant itself doesn't have a spawning value, the "Attack Group" does.  If the Nexus Group is all shot up (ie, lost 2 Warriors), its link to the Hive Mind is more disrupted than a Hive Tyrant who started on its own.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Mar 12, 2007 10:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(thurse @ Mar. 12 2007,16:38)
QUOTE
- I can't see why someone would get a harridan/vituperator over winged warriors, because of WE sniping.

I see similar sentiments expressed a lot.  They make me wonder if you guys have played many "big bug" army lists.  If you have played "big bugs" lists, please share how or if you think that changed the experience of using Harridans and Vituperators.  I've found that it makes a big difference in their effectiveness.

If there are only a few WEs in a list, these guys are a big target.   However, with multiple Nid WEs bearing down on the enemy it becomes a lot more difficult to single them out.  Harridans and Vituperators are fast enough they can hide at least partially and still be a legitimate assault threat.  Big biotitans bearing down on the enemy tend to attract a lot of fire.  Between those two factors, it's not that hard for Harridans and Vituperators to survive long enough to put a hurt on someone.
Author:  thurse [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

please share how or if you think that changed the experience of using Harridans and Vituperators.
I agree that the "big nid list" makes harridans and vituperator more appealing, but we've found that indirectly, they protect bio-titans... With BTS and tie-break in mind, they are very interesting to shoot at with TK weapons.
Even in non-big guys armies, we found harridans useful, as they give what lacks a bit to nid armies : mobility. The downside is that they can be sniped, but they can hide.
So, Gargoyles were never used as main assault units, but more as flanking ones. With winged warriors, it is possible to do so.


Could you give us an overview of the forces you used and fought against in this "Winged Horror" scenario?

From memory, the first army used was the following :
3 hierophant
4 dactilys + tyrant
6 carni + tyrant
15 gargoyles + warriors
15 gargoyles + warriors
15 gargoyles + warriors
lesser node
4 spores
A variant of a somewhat classical list we see. Here the usual common brood swarms were replaced by gargoyles. ?The army is not invincible, but the gargoyles swarm behave much better than "normal" ones.
Nearly everody moves at least at 25 cm ( except garrison and artillery ).
And finally finishing remaining nid warriors is far from easy as the redeploy easily after a withdraw ( nice move + jump packs => behind hills or buildings )

We also tried a gargoyle horde army : 6 swarms of gargoyles + some stuff. It wasn't that effective ( depending on the opposing army )

I don't say it is overpowered, but in an army trying to field a wide range of units, gargoyles+warriors are the best common brood swarm.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Safe spawning, winged warriors

(thurse @ Mar. 13 2007,14:16)
QUOTE
From memory, the first army used was the following :
3 hierophant
4 dactilys + tyrant
6 carni + tyrant
15 gargoyles + warriors
15 gargoyles + warriors
15 gargoyles + warriors
lesser node
4 spores
A variant of a somewhat classical list we see. Here the usual common brood swarms were replaced by gargoyles.

That's a very interesting list!  

I'll have to try and give that one a spin some time in the near future... gonna have to proxy a lot of Gargoyles though!
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