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Fearless Biotitans
nealhunt
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:23 pm 
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Silly me.  I thought there was another thread dealing with Fealress/non-Fearless titans, but that was specific to Heriodules.

To begin, I don't think that the 'Phants are "Reaver equivalents" as someone posted elsewhere (sorry, can't recall where, so no attribution).  They are more like a scout titan and a heavy scout titan than a battle titan.  I think that is an important style distinction.

If you compare the Heirophant to something with a similar role like a Slaanesh Subjugator (Scout titan, TK specialist), I think that its abilities start to come into focus.  It's tougher (even taking shields into account), better in FF, slightly worse in pure TK but overall better in CC, and has better firepower.  It is not Fearless but is Unstoppable.  The Subjugator is a bit faster.  So, overall, the Subjugator is better at pure titan hunting but the Heirophant has more general flexibility.  In play, I've seen them devastate and I've seen them ineffective and gutted.  Overall, I think the points are pretty close as-is.

If you add Fearless, then you are taking them more into the realm of heavier titans.  Their durability increases substantially without the threat of hackdown kills.  Their offensive ability also increases, as a lost assault simply means they get a charge move and can ignore ZoC (I won't belabor why this is so effective for Nids in particular).

That's a different style.  With the requisite increase in points that Fearless would require, they will take a much bigger bite out of the Independent Swarm points.

I'd say that you're looking at roughly +25% on points if you add Fearless.  Say, 325/450 at a ballpark guess.  Personally, I think that takes biotitans from a feasible 2-3 titans in a 2700 point list to a maximum of 2.  It leaves considerably less room to pack in Independent swarms for activations.

That's not necessarily good or bad, but it is a substantial tradeoff in abilities, imho.  I don't think that Fearless versions would be overpowered or non-Fearless are underpowered as long as we get the points right.

Personally, my preference would be to have more titans potentially on the board even if they aren't as tough.  The idea of biotitans as "super-broods" appeals to me more than the "bio-TITAN" emphasis.  I think it fits with the concept of the list better.

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thurse
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 5:42 pm 
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Neal,
The hydraphant is already fearless on the list for 375 points...
In another thread, I pointed out that I found it overpowered for its price. Other people quite convinced me that it wasn't because of the critical effect.

With 4 wounds, Hydraphant and hierophant have a probability of a bit more than 50% to die. It is less a problem for the hiero, but for the hydra it definitly is : 4 wounds is only half its total DC.

Concerning the fearless ability, I'd rather see no titan with it. It is far more enjoyable as the nid player really have to be subtle to them.

(and finally, it is out of the subject but I really don't like the nid critical system  )
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Soren
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 6:56 pm 
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(thurse @ Feb. 20 2007,16:42)
QUOTE
Neal,
The hydraphant is already fearless on the list for 375 points...
In another thread, I pointed out that I found it overpowered for its price. Other people quite convinced me that it wasn't because of the critical effect.

With 4 wounds, Hydraphant and hierophant have a probability of a bit more than 50% to die. It is less a problem for the hiero, but for the hydra it definitly is : 4 wounds is only half its total DC.

Concerning the fearless ability, I'd rather see no titan with it. It is far more enjoyable as the nid player really have to be subtle to them.

(and finally, it is out of the subject but I really don't like the nid critical system  )

To be honest. I do not want to be subtile with Bio titans. I want to throw them into the battle without mercy (neighter for me, nor the enemy  :D ). Make ?m fearless, but raise the points. Bio Titans are claw-wielding, insectoid, merciless and ravenous giant monsters generated by worst nightmares....

So fleeing a fight in "fear" is not the way I would like to see them. They hack and slay until they are killed or the enemy is vanished.

I will pay the increased points for this, take any restrictions, but want my fearless giant butchers back  :blush:

Better to have fewer Bio-Titans on the field and the few ones are frightening the enemy than many of them only to give the enemy a target practice in destroying war machines.

my 0,02 cent

Soren

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ragnarok
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 7:53 pm 
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I agree that both bio titans should be fearless (though it is no bench mark pretty much everything larger than a gaunt is fearless in a 40K nid army).  I see it as somewhere between the imerpiums warhound and reaver class titans in ability.

Though it is as tough as a Reaver its lack of shields reuces it to near the number of hits a warhound can take.

I know that Hena is worried that if we give it fearless then it just becomes a smaller Hydraphant, but isn't that the case with everyone elses titans.

A greater gargant is just a bigger gargant with more weapons power fiels and DC.

A warlord is a bigger Reaver with more DC, voids and a bit more focused firepower (ie a volcano cannon)

A phantom is a bigger reveant with either more firepower or a really big hand.

I think that all titan class WE should have fearless incase the dice desert you.  I don't want mu Heirophant to die to combat res just becuase I rolled all 1s and 2s to hit.  Just like I don't want my Reaver to die because it also went pansie on me.

It doesn't matter as much with formations of infantry or tanks.  Charges with them should fail in appaling ways sometimes, but god machines should be able to pull back from a orched assault with nothing more than a red face.

Right now time for some solutions.
1) Reuce the Heirophants save to 5+RA.  Makes it easier to bring down with massed firepower to compensate for its ability to walk away from an engagement.

2) A new special rule  :O  :O  :O .  Any Tyranid formation that loses an engagement suffers a -1 to its next activation roll.  This represents the bio-titan getting confused by the prey-things not dying like they should, or the hive mind reorging the swarm (discarding wounded creatures summoning fresh ones and spending more time thinking about the enemies stratagy so more inclined to let the gaunts wander off).

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 10:49 am 
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My two cents...

You don't have to be subtle with non-fearless titans - they still carry a huge threat to the enemy and are ignored at your opponents peril.

I have only once lost a Heirophant as a result of hackdowns and I have to take my hat off to my opponent for assaulting it in the first place. Think of hackdowns more as the beast getting hamstringed in the way elephants were in ancient times by skirmishing troops. Its not that the elephant was scared of a human but more that the beastie got outsmarted and hit repeatedly in its achillies heal.

I support the Hydra as fearless and the Hiero as non-fearless. Currently I would choose the non-fearless heiro over the fearless hydra in a 2.7K battle and use the extra 100 points to field a pair of Lictors. Saying that I like having to option of being able to field the bigger badder phant.

If its going to the vote then I vote for keeping the hydra fearless and the heiro non-fearless (have I said that already?) :)

Lightbringer the fearless!
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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:35 am 
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(Soren @ Feb. 20 2007,17:56)
QUOTE
To be honest. I do not want to be subtile with Bio titans. I want to throw them into the battle without mercy (neighter for me, nor the enemy  :D ). Make ?m fearless, but raise the points. Bio Titans are claw-wielding, insectoid, merciless and ravenous giant monsters generated by worst nightmares....

So fleeing a fight in "fear" is not the way I would like to see them. They hack and slay until they are killed or the enemy is vanished.

I will pay the increased points for this, take any restrictions, but want my fearless giant butchers back  :blush:

Better to have fewer Bio-Titans on the field and the few ones are frightening the enemy than many of them only to give the enemy a target practice in destroying war machines.

my 0,02 cent

Soren

I'm now in agreement with Soren on this.

Seeing massive Bio-Titans being hacked down is damned odd...

Up the points, and give 'em fearless.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:12 pm 
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E&C, if you want to play bio-titans this way then just take the non-fearless hydraphant - simple.

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Markconz
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 12:42 pm 
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All bio-TITANS fearless.  

Stick the points up, it's better than having them hacked down by grots.

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Hojyn
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 1:44 pm 
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I'd rather have many, non-Fearless Bio-titans than one or two Fearless beasts.

I believe the main theme of the Tyranid army is the "endless horde of bugs" : expensive, Fearless bio-Titans don't fit in with that concept.
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ragnarok
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:45 pm 
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(Hojyn @ Feb. 21 2007,12:44)
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I'd rather have many, non-Fearless Bio-titans than one or two Fearless beasts.

I believe the main theme of the Tyranid army is the "endless horde of bugs" : expensive, Fearless bio-Titans don't fit in with that concept.

For me a nid army is either a mass of cheap gaunt level troops, or a smaller elite army of massive creatures.  Look at the two paths availiable in 40K.  Either a horde of gaunts and stealers or a reasonable number of fexes.

we shouldn't be able to have a horde of big guys, otherwise the hivemind would have phased out the gaunts.  To get numbers we need to use infantry not titans.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Wed Feb 21, 2007 3:58 pm 
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we shouldn't be able to have a horde of big guys, otherwise the hivemind would have phased out the gaunts.  To get numbers we need to use infantry not titans.


...which is why there is a points limit on independants (inc titans) and a minimum on common broods.....

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Dobbsy
 Post subject: Fearless Biotitans
PostPosted: Thu Feb 22, 2007 3:51 am 
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I think Fearless and + points for the Heiro for me. In regards to those saying "just take Hydra if you want fearless" I would prefer to see the difference in taking the Heiro over the Hydra as what it is armed with and the difference in DC. It will logically be cheaper than the Hydra too.
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