Tactical Command
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[Experimental] Tyranid AA
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=8752		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:54 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Okay, there's been a lot of discussion about Tyranid AA. ?Giving the attack to Zoanthropes was a bit bolted on, Tyranids have no aircraft, and it's a serious weakness for Tyranids.

The idea of including Meiotic Spores has been examined, but I, for one, don't feel that they are a "tactical" anti-air solution for the Tyranids. ?They are more like barrage balloons and would lend themselves to a more defensive role, accumulating around and protecting Tyranid structures and such.  (Another "Experimental Rule" detailing Tyranid defensive structures to be used in "Assault" and "Raid" style scenarios will be forth-coming.)

Having recently read the Ultramarines Trilogy, I was struck by how Gargoyles are constantly swarming over advancing Tyranid swarms and how they can fly high enough to endanger ground attacking aircraft and this is what I'd like to propose.

I've already played one game with the following experimental rule and it really feels right.

Please take a look:
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Common Brood

Gargoyles - 25 points

Gargoyle
Type Speed Armour CC FF
Inf ?30cm ? 6+ ?6+ ?5+
Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Fleshborer (15cm) Small Arms
Swarm Strike 15cm AA6+
Notes: Skimmer, Brood (1), Any Gargoyle that makes a Swarm Strike attack is removed as a casualty after the attack is resolved.

In addition, all "Warp Blast" weapons lose their AA5+.

To compensate, please also use the following:

Uncommon Brood

Zoanthrope - 35 points

Zoanthrope
Type Speed Armour CC FF
LV 15cm 5+ 6+ 5+
Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Warp Blast 30cm AP4+/AT4+
Notes: Reinforced Armour, Walker, Brood (3)
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:09 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Please post your experiences with this rule here.

Thanks!
Author:  Markconz [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Ok I like the idea, a nice return to basics and gargoyle tradition I think :)

One question - if you 'swarm strike' and miss are the gargoyles removed? The current wording would seem to suggest so.

Will test next week and let you know how it goes.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 3:26 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA

(Markconz @ Feb. 26 2007,02:21)
QUOTE
One question - if you 'swarm strike' and miss are the gargoyles removed? The current wording would seem to suggest so.

Yep, they are removed, even if they miss!!!

Consider them to have been sent out of Synapse range or scattered by turbulence and they must be "respawned" to be returned.

I must say it made for some hard choices during the recent game, but they played really well!
Author:  Dobbsy [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:08 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Is 15cm indicative of their actual move range? Could they maybe have a 20-30cm range? They are all but useless against most aircraft ranges. I dunno I'll try to get some games in with them. How did you find them in game Chroma?
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 4:14 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA

(Dobbsy @ Feb. 26 2007,03:08)
QUOTE
Is 15cm indicative of their actual move range? Could they maybe have a 20-30cm range? They are all but useless against most aircraft ranges. I dunno I'll try to get some games in with them. How did you find them in game Chroma?

Well, they *do* have to fly "up" a fair bit... *laugh*

With Swarms scattered about with Gargoyles on their perimeter, the enemy really has to figure out where they are going to attack as well as where they are going to exit the table as the AA can actually "cover" a respectable area. ?The enemy has to decide if they're going to get in close to fire all their weapons or "stand off" and shoot. ?As well, most aircraft will "fly over" the swarm they are shooting at when they disengage and may get hit then.

As well, it make air assaulting a Swarm extremely dangerous!
Author:  Hojyn [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Giving AA to the Gargoyles is a nice concept, but isn't it too powerful?

Every swarm could have 5-6 AA attacks, that would be a nightmare for all aircraft. Sure they're destroyed after use, but they're easily respawnable.

If the idea is that the air is saturated with spores, how about this:

- Remove AA attacks from Tyranid units that currently have them.

- Add new rule, something along those lines:

"Aircraft formations automatically receive a Blast marker after their approach move. In addition, after each turn made by an aircraft formation during its approach and disengagement moves, it receives a Blast marker."

This would be an abstract way to represent aircraft unit being incapacitated by Tyranid spores. No casualties, but most aircraft wouldn't be able to activate the following turn.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:09 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA

(Hojyn @ Feb. 26 2007,10:10)
QUOTE
Giving AA to the Gargoyles is a nice concept, but isn't it too powerful?

Every swarm could have 5-6 AA attacks, that would be a nightmare for all aircraft. Sure they're destroyed after use, but they're easily respawnable.

Well, it's six 15cm 6+ "one shot" attacks for 150 points.

Six attacks that, if on the perimeter of a swarm, can be shredded with AP fire and, if near the center of a swarm, they may be out of range.

What we found when using them is that aircraft could make their initial attacks fairly easy, but would have to jink of the way out, if going after a single swarm. ?With multiple swarms in the area, it made it "interesting" for the enemy pilots. ?*laugh*

Yes, they're respawnable, but if you're focusing your spawning on anti-air defence, you're losing out somewhere else. ?What I really liked about them is they made for some hard choices for the Tyranid player. ?Such as "If I use all six of these Gargoyles I'll be cutting my swarm by a third..." or "I need to hit those planes, but I need those Gargoyles to reach the enemy with firefight to clip them", etc. ?It wasn't always the easy or obvious choice in what to do.

And I like that.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
It's virtually never going to happen.  15cm?  That will only defend against air assaults, and then only against the actual formation the Gargoyles are attached to - assuming that Gargoyles completely surround the formation AND it's not a FF assault.

More importantly, I would never use that ability unless I just happened to think that placing a BM was worth the cost of a single Gargoyle.  At AA6+, that's basically spending 120 points for a single hit.  OTOH, looking at aircraft values and resistance to damage a single AA hit averages about half that - ~60 points - counting criticals.  Even with the ability to Spawn Gargoyles back, that's nothing I would even consider.

Basically, defending against an air assault it might be worth it to burn a single Gargoyle to place a BM for the +2 modifier.  Outside of that, I'll take a Gargoyle over a 6+AA shot every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Even if by some miracle your opponent forgets to bring his brain and flies within striking distance, it's still not worth it.  Spawning back the casualties will be cheaper than spawning back Gargoyles that try to shoot down the aircraft in a vain attempt to prevent the casualties.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA

(nealhunt @ Feb. 26 2007,16:13)
QUOTE
Outside of that, I'll take a Gargoyle over a 6+AA shot every day of the week and twice on Sundays.

That's actually the point.

I don't believe Tyranids *should* be effective against airpower, its their one major weakness and they should have a relatively poor response to it.

Surrounding an important unit like the Dom or a Bio-titan with other swarms seeded with Gargoyles means the enemy will most likely have to fly through flak to get to them.  If they're just going to plink other swarms because of that, the threat has still influenced them.  With the usual "opening march" moves that Tyranids often make, by Turn 2, the enemy is going to have a lot of areas on their side of the battlefield with potential flak areas to contend with, and a few Blast markers here or there can really impede aerospace operations.

I believe AA5+ on them would probably be too good, but, like the title says, this is "Experimental" and as much as it galls me to say it *LAUGH* I'd like to see some playtests with it.
Author:  Charad [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Sounds interesting?, I like the idea, losing one gargoyle and inflicting blast markers... But maybe 6+ is too poor, and 5+ too good...
Author:  BlackLegion [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:52 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Perhabs with Disrupt? Certainly removing gargoyle innards from the windscreen and wings will take some time :)
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:58 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA

(BlackLegion @ Feb. 26 2007,17:52)
QUOTE
Perhabs with Disrupt? Certainly removing gargoyle innards from the windscreen and wings will take some time :)

That is something I've considered, but I'd like to see the "basic" approach tested first.

I'm keeping notes!  *laugh*
Author:  Charad [ Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:04 pm ]
Post subject:  [Experimental] Tyranid AA
Wow, that sounds great, AA 6+, disrupt. Hena, ready for ulthwe skyhost? :)
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