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[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Something based on Spore Clouds 48%  48%  [ 15 ]
Something based on Gargoyles 23%  23%  [ 7 ]
Something based on Zoanthropes 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Something that uses two or three of the above 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
Something else (explain below) 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Tyranids should have no AA 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 31

[Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 10:47 pm 
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I think people generally know my feeling about what Tyranid AA should be, but I'd like to hear from the rest of the Hive Mind.

maruma had made an interesting suggestion and I know a lot of people hold strong opinions, so  I'm open to changing my mind if a reasonably alternative can be found.

Please remember that this is for the Tournament Scenario army list.

Lastly, could someone with a copy of IA4 type up/scan the write-up on the Aerial Spore Mines and send me a copy; I don't have access to IA4.  Thanks.

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snotgun
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2007 11:08 pm 
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I'm still in the process of painting my 'Nids, so I can't really argue rules-wise due to the lack of experience. Still, I've followed the discussion with pros and cons and must say that I like the idea of Gargoyles (that get removed regardless of them hitting or not) the most - concerning the fluff and concerning the idea of forcing decisions instead of just having some always-on AA umbrella somewhere.
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Pulsar
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:51 am 
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i think it should be based on Spore Clouds and Gargoyles they seem both the most likey in game terms and the most fuffy.

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Pipboy
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 2:01 am 
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Well, I haven't been keeping very close tabs on the discussion but I feel like 'Nid AA should be a mix of organisms (read: gargoyles) and shooting (read: Zoanthropes). I see it play out like this: Gargoyles are an active and deliberate choice for AA cover that can be used 'at range' - whereas Zoanthropes would be more of a last ditch 'point defence' AA system for valuable synapse creatures. Think of it as a naval task group. Fighters provide active and longer range air defence but every ship (especially important capital ships) will have a built-in passive and automaticaly engaging point defence against air attacks. Does that make sense?

Then again, I'm not that experienced with 'Nids.

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Justiniel
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:38 am 
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I've little experience (or knowledge) of Nids but I think that they should have no basic AA as they are an organic creature, for the same reason I often wonder how they would react to meeting a necron, I think they would ignore it. However I've voted Spores as I can see those 'disrupting' enemy aircraft, gargoyle suicide crashes would also work.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:47 am 
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"The sensitive tendrils seem to detect incoming aircraft and allow the Meiotic Spore to home-in. Propelled by a gaseous release, the Meotic Spore attempts to intercept the target aircraft................. They seem to be simply mindless creatures, controlled by the whim of synapse creatures or simply endlessly drifting about awaiting an unsuspecting target." - Imperial Armour 4, pg 94.


I've voted for Meotic Spores as the Tyranid's only form of AA, because they seem to tally closest with today's background.

I havn't been able to find a reference to Gargoyles being a common hazard to aircraft in years, while as far as I know there's never been a reference to Zoanthropes 'shooting down' enemy aircraft in anything other than the 'stopgap' Tyranid list for Epic 4th edition.

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Tiny-Tim
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 9:57 am 
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Well I agree with Pipboy, that I would like to see a combination of Gargoyles and Zoanthropes as th AA for Tyranids. It shouldn't be good, but some should be there.

Tim

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Soren
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:03 am 
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Gargoyles are my favourites

Not always I need a hint to see how things could function in an Bio-engineered-waepon-of doom army :)

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:05 am 
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Think for a moment about the pure practicalities of 'suicide gargoyles'.

You're asking something that flies at about the speed a man runs to get in the way of a jet fighter. :D

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:36 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,09:05)
QUOTE
Think for a moment about the pure practicalities of 'suicide gargoyles'.

You're asking something that flies at about the speed a man runs to get in the way of a jet fighter. :D

In "Warrior of Ultrimar" a garegoyle swarm managed to chase down a mag train moving at 200km/h.  They can be fast when the hive mind wants them to.

However I voted for a mixture of thropes and spore mines.

Mines are new fluff for taking down aircraft and the image of a thrope thinking a plane down by fragging the pilots mind is just so cool  :blues:

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Markconz
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:39 am 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,08:05)
QUOTE
Think for a moment about the pure practicalities of 'suicide gargoyles'.

You're asking something that flies at about the speed a man runs to get in the way of a jet fighter. :D

???  You must be talking about spores... what you say is simply a misrepresentation of gargoyles.

Read the new 40k tyranid codex.  Here's how the tyranids are first introduced (my emphasis in italics):

Faeruthriel and her squadron careened alongside the fractured glassaic domes, the smooth lines of their jetbikes cutting through the spore-choked air. The designs on the dome walls blurred into one, but still the loathsome winged tryanids pursuing them kept pace. She banked sharply as a tell-tale buzzing indicated another incoming volley of flesh-beetles disgorged from the Tyranids' weapon-beasts, her squad following in perfect synchronisation before diving through a splintered archway. Lherian convulsed as a pair of shiny borer-beasts burrowed into his back, and he smashed into the delicate dome walls with a loud crack.  (pg 3 Codex Tyranids)


Gargoyles are zooming around at the speed of eldar jetbikes (faster than the fastest superbike today presumably). Imagine trying to steer your plane through a swarm of gargoyles which are all trying to manoevuer into your flight path at speeds of hundreds of kilometres of an hour. Ever seen what birdstrike from a seagull can do to a plane? Imagine something the size of a man with chitinous armour deliberately moving at 300kmhr into the path of your attack run. They are bio-engineered weapons. Comparison with existing living organisms only takes you so far.

As I have repeatedly stated throughout tyranid development, get over the idea that biological is weak and mechanical strong (if it were true we should just chuck out the tyranid list altogether). That is currently the state on earth only because we have limited technology and cannot yet engineer the biological much, (though we are starting too). The strongest substance on earth is still made by the ARACHNID! Ragnarok gets it, some others are a bit more slow to catch on... :p  If people have such mistaken understandings of the background of the 40K universe, then this poll isn't much use at this stage unfortunately. If the majority are ill-informed then democracy produces poor results...  


Chroma is right - spores are all very well and good, but they are better suited to defense than accompanying an attacking tyranid force.

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Lightbringer
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:49 pm 
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I voted for Spores mainly because they are the current AA in the fluff.

I feel spore AA should be fairly defensive in nature and that bugs in the vanguard should be at risk from enemy aircraft.

If my opponent wants to max out on air power against me then fine - its less points on the ground for him to contest objectives. As long as you avoid aircraft sniping then I don't see a problem with fairly poor AA.

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Evil and Chaos
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:21 pm 
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Gargoyles are zooming around at the speed of eldar jetbikes (faster than the fastest superbike today presumably).


And Eldar Jetbikes move at what, 35cm per turn?

That's the same speed as a Space Marine Bike.

Heck, they move slower than a charging horse! :D


A Jetbike doesn't seem to go all that fast, it doesn't stay in the air because of the jets, it stays in the air because of antigrav technology, and is then propelled forwards by the jets at a fast (but not extremely fast) pace?


A Harridan in Aeronautica Imperialis terms would be speed zero and any Tyranids in that game would just be target practice or obstacles to avoid (That's a paraphrased quote from the game designer himself). So no, I don't think Gargoyle swarms should have 40cm speed and the ability to suicide themselves into aircraft.

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Chroma
 Post subject: [Discussion]Primary Tyranid AA: What should it be?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:32 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Mar. 09 2007,12:21)
QUOTE
A Harridan in Aeronautica Imperialis terms would be speed zero and any Tyranids in that game would just be target practice or obstacles to avoid (That's a paraphrased quote from the game designer himself). So no, I don't think Gargoyle swarms should have 40cm speed and the ability to suicide themselves into aircraft.

You do realize that the only "effective" order that can be given to aircraft fighting against Tyranids is "Ground Attack", correct?

So, it's not that the Gargoyles are swooping a mile into the air, but that they are rising to get into the way of strafing and dive-bombing aircraft.

Aircraft in EPIC aren't performing strategic bombing runs from high in the atmosphere, they are performing close air support.

During its initial attack, a Gargoyle can only hit an aircraft that has gotten withing "Storm Bolter" range... that's 15cm in game terms, that's pretty close to the ground, so I don't see why Gargoyles wouldn't be swarming at that altitude.

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