Tactical Command
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Tunneling
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7886		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
Okay, as much as I think Nids are pushing the envelope on special rules, this might end up being a useful discussion even if not used for Nids.  I forgot to bring my rulebook so I could do a full draft, but conceptually it could work something like:

Tunneling [use current rules in Collectors Models, adding the following]:
... While tunneling some units create tunnels that allow other units to follow them by virtue of sheer size or special abilities.  These units will be noted as Tunneler (x) in the same manner as the Transport ability, noting what units are eligible to follow the tunneler.  All follow-on units must be placed within 5cm of the tunneling unit immediately upon emerging.

Then you just add Tunneler to the Ravener notes and have something like this for the Trygon:

Tunneler (up to 4 of the following units: Hive Tyrant, Tyranid Warrior, Termagant, Hormagaunt)

An example of a Swarm to use that might be:
Trygon
Trygon
3 Warriors ("transported")
5 Termagants (transported)
4 Raveners (tunnel on their own)
545 points
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
Tunneler (X) seems like an excelent idea.

I wouldn't include Hive Tyrants on the transportable list however, because in the 40k rules the Trygon can only bring Gaunts, Hormagaunts & Raveners with it... it can't even bring Warriors, but for the sake of gameplay I'd be willing to accept transportable warriors as they're pretty much the same size as a Ravener (In fact Raveners are just a variant genus of the Warrior form in the Background).

Hive Tyrants would just be too big however... a HT model is 2/3rds the size of a Trygon.

So either a third HT variant could be adoped (A Tunneling Tyrant instead of a flying one), or no Tunneling HT's at all.
Author:  Morg [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
I didn't follow the recent discussion on the tyranid list, but I am curious: Why the tunneling? Is there a direct need for new abilities which justifies introducing new rules?

Fighting GT games against nids is already hard enough. Allowing them to close in without even being shot at is a really powerful ability.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
No direct need, just an attempt to match up background.  As I said, it may very well not work in the list.  I just thought it might be a useful discussion.

The Tunneling ability isn't all that great as far as closing range.  It's preplotted as Planetfall, so you're guessing where the enemy will be and possibly scattering.  First two turns you can only come up in your half of the board.  Marching is better in that respect but, obviously, you can be shot at.  Ideally, that would be a fair trade-off.

===

E&C:  It was just a stab in the dark.  I'm very much not up on 40K rules, especially FW 40K rules.  I don't even know if 4 units is an appropriate number, let alone which ones.  In the end it would have to be game balance that decided.

Does the Trygon actually transport the units (tucked under carapce like a harridan or whatever) or do they follow in the 40K rules?
Author:  Moscovian [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 5:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
As much as I dislike a lot of special rules, having the Tyranids tunnelling sounds really cool.  Even if it was for a single unit type I'd love it.

Sounds very Starship Troopers to me. :D
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
Here's a basic overview of the Trygon's Tunneling ability in 40k.


When a Trygon tunnels onto the board (Using a similar mechanism to Teleport which is known as Deep Strike in 40k), a single brood (Squad) of light units (Termagants, Homagaunts, Raveners or Rippers) can follow in its wake through the tunnel the Trygon has made.

The size of the brood is limited by the normal Tyranid army list, so up to 32 Gaunts, or 10 Raveners (Can't remember how many Ripper bases are allowed in a brood but they're not in Epic except as an abstraction so it's irrelevant).

Ravners are allowed to use the Trygon's tunnel because it provides them an advantage over using their own version of Deep Strike because it lets them emerge in base-to-base with an enemy model and not be destroyed, but instead count as Charging the enemy in the next round of close combat (As the Trygon has a superior version of Deep Strike). This would be too much of a change to Epic's game mechanics so I'd suggest just allowing Raveners to Tunnel themselves and forget about the Trygon's instant-Engagement rule.

So that gives a Trygon that can carry light infantry, and be escorted by Raveners. All that leaves in Synapse, so either allow Hive Tyrants to Tunnel (1 AV target in the whole formation would be mighty vulnerable however), or allow Warriors to be carried.

As Warriors are the size of Raveners, I'd say let Warriors be transported.

So in Epic, that'd be Tunneler - (Six Termagant bases OR six Hormagaunt bases OR Three Warrior bases)
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Mon Nov 06, 2006 7:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
So, a Theoretical 'Tunneling' Trygon would look thusly:


Trygon
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Bio-Electric Field/ 15cm/ D3 AP3+ AT6+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Invulnerable Save, Brood (6), Infiltrator, Tunneler (Six Termagant units OR six Hormagaunt units OR Three Warrior units).
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed


Justifications:

Infiltrator - The Trygon doubles its speed when charging in 40k, making it considerably faster than a Hierodule when charging. Thus, Infiltrate.

Tunneler - Duh. :D

Oh and I removed Ignore cover from the bio-electric attack, as per Hena's suggestion.
Author:  Hojyn [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling

(Evil and Chaos @ Nov. 06 2006,18:47)
QUOTE
So, a Theoretical 'Tunneling' Trygon would look thusly:


Trygon
Type/ Speed/ Armor/ CC/ FF
WE/ 15cm/ 3+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ Notes
Bio-Electric Field/ 15cm/ D3 AP3+ AT6+
" " " Claws/ Base Contact/ MW/ +2 Attacks
notes:DC-3, Fearless, Walker, Invulnerable Save, Brood (6), Infiltrator, Tunneler (Six Termagant units OR six Hormagaunt units OR Three Warrior units).
Critical Hit 1D6
1-5 Lose one extra DC
6 Killed


Sounds good to me, althought that would probably make it cost a good deal more than the current 100 points.

One other thing : why give it D3 attacks and not a fixed number of attack? Is the randomness really needed? Would 3x AP3+/AT6+ be too much (considering it will rarely be used anyway, as the Trygon is much better in assault)?
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
The randomness is directly from the 40k rules, where it has D6 ranged attacks.

And yes the Trygon is definitely too cheap at 100 points, I've been testing it at 150pts even without the Tunneling abilitiy.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
In general, I'd say no random firepower.  I argued with Audrey against random firepower in the L&D daemon engines.  All it does is slow stuff down and add a greater luck factor.

Even if you go with trying to transfer 40K rules as directly as possilbe (which I think is highly dubious in many cases), over the multiple 40K turns represented in an Epic turn the firepower is going to average out.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
I fail to see the difference between (for example) a D3 attacks weapon, or a TKD6 Weapon, other than where in the combat phase the die is rolled.

I've always thought TKD6 weapons (Of which there are a fair few) to be massively luck-based, but then, we're playing a luck-based wargame (Else why use dice at all!), so I'm cool with that.

Even if, now and then, I cause a single point of Damage on an unshielded Warlord Titan.

Overall I thought that the Trygon's attack was characterful enough and variable enough in ***volume, as well as rare enough on the battlefield, that I proposed giving it D3 ranged attacks (On a weapon that will only rarely be used).

It's not an issue over which I'd fight very hard, but it's a very characteristic attribute of the Trygon in 40k.

*** Anywhere between 6 and 36 individual shots over the course of a 6-turn 40k game.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
The difference is that multi-TK weapons don't require the damage roll most of the time.  You have to have both a hit and a target that is a WE.  Most of them are only d3.  The only d6 in any published list that I can think of is the Deathstrike (and I wouldn't mind seeing that change).

But more importantly, I would like to discourage you from relying so heavily on calculating epic stats based on 40K.  It's a good idea for judging the general ballpark (mostly proportional strength and power) but it's not going to work in a lot of cases.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Nov 07, 2006 11:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Tunneling
it's not going to work in a lot of cases.

I do agree, honest. :)

I think of all the 'new' stats I've proposed (And I've proposed more than most), only the Trygon's ranged attack has had a random, and that's purely for flavour.

As I said, I wouldn't fight this one all that hard, but as well as reflecting the 40k rules (Which I believe to be an important consideration in helpin keep Epic accessable to the GW 'core' gamers), it also helps clearly differentiate the Scythed Hierodule's ranged attack from the Trygon's (And a Tunneling special rule will also do the same of course). Right now there's little to choose between the two types of WE.

There, I've said my piece, I ceede the floor on this issue. :)
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