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some rehased ideas

ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:01 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

Well I haven't rambled on like some old fool for a while, so I thought I would share my thoughts with all of you. ?There will be three, or maybe four points. ?I'm not sure. ?For new ones always crop up.

First off. ?Spawning

I'm wondering, how many of you think that spawning, does what it is suppose to. ?That is, represent an endless hoard of critters, without having to swamp the able with them?

For me, it seems more like a trickle than a stream, with half of my synapse creatures failing to spawn and the other only spawning one or two gaunts.

Now I don't want to go back to the old days of the mega spawn, swarm out of a hat parlour trick, but I do think that we should be able to boast the spawning a bit.

A couple of ideas in that direction.

1) Remove the cap on adding mycetic spores to a spawning action, or at least increase it.

2) Return to the double spawn option that we played around with. ?Have a small spawn in the end phase (a mere D3 no bonuses) and allow a marshal action in which synapse spawn bonuses and mycetic spores can be used.

I know that we played around with the second idea for a while, but I can't remember why we dropt it.

Talking about spawning, I think that the spawn value should be fixed at D3, with a bonus depending on what is leading it. ?This is for two reasons.

1) It makes it easier to figure out the spawning values of new synapse groups.

2) It allows for synapse groups with more than one stand to start to lose their synapse ability as stands die

3) It could make assault groups more attractive. ?For example, if the spawn bonus of a tyrant was +2 and a warrior +1, then a full assault brood would spawn at D3+3, a nexus brood at D3+4 and a tyrant D3+2. ?However as the assault brood loses warrior stands its spawning drops to D3+2 then D3+1.

Right I think that was two points, carefully concealed as one

Now onto my last one (before I start ranting about how flyrants need a better save ect ect, you all know the drill)

We have Epilgrim and my converting addiction to blame for this one.

Flying warriors. ?A simple upgrade of, replace their venom cannon with wings (gain jump pack and speed 25cm)

Thus avian warriors look like
Tyranid Warrior
Type /Speed /Armour /Close Combat /Firefight
Inf /25cm /4+ /3+ /5+
Weapons /Range /Firepower /Notes
- Deathspitters ?(15cm) ?(small arms)
- Paired Talons ?(base contact) ?(assault weapons) /Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Fearless, Synapse, jump pack

I went for replacing their ranged attack rather than a cost increase or armour reduction, since I feel that it balances them more.

Increase their cost and taking a gargoyle avian warrior swarm doesn't seem that attractive, (they are designed to die after all) an armour reduction will make the warriors die too quickly. ?However remove their ability to prep an assault with a BM (lets not kid around here warriors don't kill things at range) and their usefulness is countered by the static combat res.

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ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:48 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Hena @ Sep. 25 2006,10:16)

QUOTE

I disagree with the warriors +1 as it makes them too good. They are the most used synapse at least in my games (due to being only inf synapse really). Only thing that probably would "feel" weird is the nexus, but haven't tried it yet. The point one is argumentable as the extra d3 can also be balanced with proper thought.

Well warriors are suppose to be the mainstay of the hives synapse creatures, so they should be quite effective ?

Though I can see your concern. ?One solution would be to increase everyones spawning values and then jack up the spawning cost of the creatures to compensate.

The loss of armour 4+ -> 5+ is bigger thing than loss of weapon. At least I've very rarely used weapon. Hit I've got more often.

Well warriors don't realy lose armour when they take wings (since they are rarely taken to begin with, and the extened carapace costs so much).

It also has the problem of they get a better deal than the tyrant on the being winged issue. ?He loses 2 pips of his save whilst they lose only one, and he is tougher than them to begin with.

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:43 am

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Joined: Fri May 05, 2006 2:57 am
Posts: 20887
Location: Harrogate, Yorkshire

(ragnarok @ Sep. 25 2006,10:48)

QUOTE

Well warriors don't realy lose armour when they take wings (since they are rarely taken to begin with, and the extened carapace costs so much).

I disagree on the extended carapace... it gives them a save that can resist Bolter fire and is thus pretty much a nessesity in 80% of games.

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ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:59 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Evil and Chaos @ Sep. 25 2006,11:43)

QUOTE

(ragnarok @ Sep. 25 2006,10:48)

QUOTE

Well warriors don't realy lose armour when they take wings (since they are rarely taken to begin with, and the extened carapace costs so much).

I disagree on the extended carapace... it gives them a save that can resist Bolter fire and is thus pretty much a nessesity in 80% of games.

They are still heavy bolter fodder.

I can't seem to get the (walking) blighters to work well in any sort of list (which is why I went nidzilla)

I find that wings give a better save than extended carapace on both the warriors and tyrant. The increased movement rate allows them to hide behind cover with ease as well as get into combat quicker, where those high AP weapons can't get them.

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epilgrim

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:34 pm

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

I like the idea of TW with wings, but a lot of folks have told me I'm daft...probaly because I was also considering multiple profiles for the HT and the TW (same concept as the SM Dread).

Any way here is my latest thoughts on the fellaz (mind you this is not from 7.1 WIP)

Hive Tyrant
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Armoured Vehicle / 15cm / 3+ / 3+ / 5+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Venom Cannon / 30cm / AP 5+/AT 6+
Lash Whip / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / First Strike, Extra Attack (+1)
Piercing Talons / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Walker, Commander, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Synapse (1d3+1). (A Hive Tyrant may be given wings with the following revised profile: Speed 25cm, Jump Pack, Armour 5+)

Tyrant Guard
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Armoured Vehicle / 15cm / 3+ / 3+ / -
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Rending Claws / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon
Lash Whips / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / First Strike, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Walker, Fearless

Tyranid Warrior
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Infantry / 15cm / 4+ / 3+ / 5+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Barbed Strangler / 30cm / AP 4+
Deathspitters / (15cm) / (small arms)
Piercing Talons / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Fearless, Synapse (1d3). (A Tyranid Warrior may be given wings with the following revised profile: Speed 25cm, Jump Pack, Armour 5+)

As far as spawning, I actually think that a base spawning value of more than 2 is problematic. Here are my current thought on how to recofigure spawning to be less fixed, but with near exact max results...(actually the max results are a little better, by 2 points if you took 1 of each, min 12, avg 24, max 36...the current list is min 16, avg 25, max 34)

SYNAPSE CREATURE GROUPS
(up to 1/3 of the armies points may be spent on these groups)
Hive Group (1 Dominatrix unit) 400 points (Spawning rate, 3d3-1) (min 2, avg 5, max

(you may upgrade up to 1 Dominatrix to Supreme Commander for +50 points)
Strike Group (1 Vituperator unit) 325 points (Spawning rate, 2d3-1) (min 1, avg 3, max 5)
Harassment Group (1 Harridan unit) 225 points (Spawning rate, 1d3+1) (min 2, avg 3, max 4)
Attack Group (1 Malanthrope unit) 200 points (Spawning rate, 2d3-1) (min 1, avg 3, max 5)
Nexus Group (1 Hive Tyrant unit) 100 points (Spawning rate, 1d3+1) (min 2, avg 3, max 4)
(Any Hive Tyrant may add a retinue of 3 Tyrant Guard units for +150 points)
Assault Group (3 Tyranid Warrior units) 150 points (Spawning rate, 1d3) (min 1, avg 2, max 3)
Support Group (1 Greater Synapse Node unit) 75 points (Spawning rate, 1d3+1) (min 2, avg 3, max 4)
Infiltration Group (1 Lesser Synapse Node unit) 50 points (Spawning rate, 1d3) (min 1, avg 2, max 3)
(Any Synapse, except for the Support and Infiltration Groups, may add up to 1 Tyranid Warrior unit for +50 points. This unit serves as a backup Synapse and does not add its Spawning rate to the Swarm. If the Synapse creature leading the swarm is killed the Tyranid Warrior will lead the Swarm and can use its Spawning Rate of 1d3.)

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ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:49 pm

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

I've been thinking about your tyrant guard stats, and though I like them, they aren't the common guard.

Guards come as standard with scything talons and rending claws. ?Though I see what you are getting at with the lashwhips (get to kill the food things before they can strike back)

Another way I have thought of showing the guard is to have it as another option for the tyrant. ?So the tyratn profile becomes

Hive Tyrant
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Armoured Vehicle / 15cm / 3+ / 3+ / 5+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Venom Cannon / 30cm / AP 5+/AT 6+
Lash Whip / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / First Strike, Extra Attack (+1)
Piercing Talons / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Walker, Commander, Fearless, Invulnerable Save, Synapse (1d3+1).

A Hive Tyrant may have one of the following upgrades;

winged: with the following revised profile: Speed 25cm, Jump Pack, Armour 4+. ? +0pts

Tyrant guard. ?They the tyrants save to 4+RA and give it +1 CC attacks first strike. ? +50pts

A tyrant may not have both options.

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nealhunt

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:08 pm

Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA

I agree that spawning feels much slower than it did but I'm not sure how to avoid the "poof, a swarm" effect.

I'm very hesitant for either multiple spores or activation-based spawning because of the "poof" effect. I think the way to approach it would be to rathcet up the end phase spawning very slightly.

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ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:36 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Hena @ Sep. 26 2006,07:40)

QUOTE

Just noticed that the tyrant is upgraded with first strike. If this is wanted then add 25 to price immediately. So no such updates.

So have I

. I just cut and pasted from epilgrims post. Just saw that he said they were modified from an older version of the list. I think possible V3 had the uber stat tyrant.

So if we drop the inital lashwhip from the tyrant what do you think of the three versions?

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ragnarok

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:55 am

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Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England

(Hena @ Sep. 26 2006,08:44)

QUOTE

Tyrant guard was dropped originally as they weren't supposed to be in Hammans World list. Whether this is not valid anymore I can't say. ?I agree with the winged modification (as I said before

). Tyrant guard, I wouldn't give it first strike... no valid reason really. Without the first strike the cost and usability is fine (the fine print was above).

I'm having a blonde (or possible hung over) moment here, so bear with me.

Am I right in thinking that you think that the guard option shuld be +50pts, change armour to 4+RA?

I think that the guard should add something to the tyrants attack. A full guard of three add an extra 9 rending S4 (or possible 5) attacks as well as doubling its survivability (an extra 6W, T6 3+sv), which is why I almost went for guards merely adding RA, giving it a respectable 3+RA. :cool:

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epilgrim

Post subject: some rehased ideas

Posted: Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:02 am

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Joined: Tue Mar 25, 2003 12:28 pm
Posts: 362

my optional TG have a single 3+ save and 2 attacks at 3+. one FS and one Macro. The attacks are very characterful for the TG. If anything I would move thier save up to 4+ OR move thier attack to 4+, but I would not give them reinforced armour or change thier attack profile.

The intent is to have something different than the Carnifex, that "guards" the HT and is worth the cost of fielding, no special rules either.

With the cost of a Fex that BTW can respawn and only costs 35, the TG need to be significantly different in terms of capabilities, hence the FS ability. At 150 points with no respawn I thought it was quite a fair price point for 3.

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