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something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=7470		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  epilgrim [ Sun Sep 17, 2006 11:44 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
Here are my ideas on new or revised rules or units:

For Spawing Actions:
Each swarm may return a certain number of spawning points worth of brood creatures back into play for the synapse creature group that control the swarm. Up to 1d3 additional spawning points can be added to the Spawning Action under the following criteria:
? Add +1d3 spawning points if there are no enemy units within 30cm of any unit in the swarm; OR
? Add +1d3 spawning points by sacrificing ONE mycetic spore to the swarm during the Spawning Action, before the Rally test (up to a maximum of ONE mycetic spore may be added to a single spawning action).

Formations:
Attack Group (1 Malanthrope unit) 200 points (Spawning rate, 2d3)
Nexus Group (1 Hive Tyrant unit) 100 points (Spawning rate, 1d3)
(Any Hive Tyrant may add a retinue of 3 Tyrant Guard units for +125 points)

Objectives:
TYRANID OBJECTIVES (choose up to 1)
Tyranid Brood Nest (25 points) ? replace one objective on your table half. Up to one formation per Army containing no War Engine creatures may start off board and enter play, by placing the Synapse Creature Group w/in 5cm of this objective on any turn when they make a successful action test.
Tyranid Spore Chimney (50 points) ? replaces 1 objective on your table half. Any Tyranid formation w/in 15cm of this objective (see T1.71) gains The Horror (Inspiring)
Tyranid Capillary Towers (100 points) ? roll d3 and have the opponent replace that many generic objectives. Any Tyranid formation w/in 15cm of this objective (see T1.71) may re-roll up to one d3 during a Spawning Action.

Subdual Tyranid Bio-Construct Unit Descriptions

Malanthrope
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
War Engine / 20cm / 3+ / 3+ / 6+
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Ripper Tentacles / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Extra Attacks (d3+2)
Notes: DC (3), Walker, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Fearless, Synapse, The Horror (Inspiring)
Critical Hit: Roll 1d6 and consult the chart below.
1-5: The Malanthrope suffers one additional point of damage.
6: The Malanthrope is killed outright.

Tyrant Guard
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Armoured Vehicle / 15cm / 3+ / 3+ / -
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Rending Claws / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon
Lash Whips / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / First Strike, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: Walker, Fearless
Special: Sacrifice ? any Tyrant Guard within 5cm of a Hive Tyrant may be allocated one hit intended for the Hive Tyrant regardless of targeting rules including the Sniper special ability. If each Tyrant Guard has been allocated a hit this ability cannot be used to prevent the Hive Tyrant from being allocated a hit.

Genestealer
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Infantry / 20cm / 5+ / 4+ / -
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Paired Claws / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: First Strike, Infiltrators, Scouts, Independent. (Up to 1 Genestealer unit per Army can be upgraded to a Broodlord with the following additions to it?s profile: Commander and Macro Weapon, Extra attack (+1)).

Lictor
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
Infantry / 15cm / 5+ / 3+ / -
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Piercing Talons / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Macro-Weapon, Extra Attack (+1)
Notes: First Strike, Infiltrators, Scout, Teleport, Independent
Special: Hard to See ? Any Lictor unit further than 30cm away from a formation attempting to shoot at the Lictor formation counts as in cover (1- to hit) with a 4+ cover save.

Please discuss.
Author:  Suvarov454 [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
Just for my own clarification, would "Ignore Cover" work against "Hard To See"? ?The most obvious example is a Bombard Battery shooting indirect at a bunch of Lictors (probably on the other end of the IG baseline).
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:21 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!

(epilgrim @ Sep. 17 2006,23:44)
QUOTE
For Spawing Actions:
Each swarm may return a certain number of spawning points worth of brood creatures back into play for the synapse creature group that control the swarm. Up to 1d3 additional spawning points can be added to the Spawning Action under the following criteria:
? Add +1d3 spawning points if there are no enemy units within 30cm of any unit in the swarm; OR
? Add +1d3 spawning points by sacrificing ONE mycetic spore to the swarm during the Spawning Action, before the Rally test (up to a maximum of ONE mycetic spore may be added to a single spawning action).

I like a lot of the things you're proposing here and, especially, the weapon changes in the other thread, but, making spawning even *more* difficult/lower result is not something I'm going to support.

In all the 7.1 games I've played spawning has become almost irrelevant since it has been hit with three "nerfs": 1) higher spawn costs for most Uncommon Broods, 2) lessened spawning points produced by Synapse creatures, and 3) requires a successfully Rally check to occur.

I'm totally fine with #3, and I think it's necessary, but compounded by the other two nerfs spawning is *almost* irrelevant anymore.  Capping a Tyrant at 2d3 spawning makes the ability pointless for them as they'll average only 3 spawn points a turn, not enough to protect themselves at all.

I believe each Synapse creature should have a "spawn value" attached to their "Synapse" ability in their notes as opposed to their "formation" so that "combo" Synapse Groups would be easier to create while damaging Synapse groups would degrade their ability to respawn.

Eg:
Tyranid Warrior, Synapse (+1)
Hive Tyrant, Synapse (+2)
Dominatrix, Synapse (+d3+1)

So a fresh Assault Swarm with three Warriors would have a spawing bonus of +3 and a Nexus Group, 2 Warriors and 1 Tyrant, would have +4, but that number would decrease as the Synapse creatures were killed.

Thoughts?
Author:  Chroma [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:24 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!

(epilgrim @ Sep. 17 2006,23:44)
QUOTE
Lictor
Special: Hard to See ? Any Lictor unit further than 30cm away from a formation attempting to shoot at the Lictor formation counts as in cover (1- to hit) with a 4+ cover save.

I'd say just give it an ability (if you think it needs one) of "always in cover", so enemies always get the -1 to hit.  I don't think it needs the 4+ save as 5+ save plus imvulnerable save essentially give it a 4+ save and some resistance to MW and such.
Author:  epilgrim [ Mon Sep 18, 2006 12:41 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
suvarov454,

IMO Ignore Cover abilities apply wi/30cm otherwise "hard to see" takes precedence (the old immobile object vs. irraistable object)

Chroma,

I purposely posed the seperate threads because of the potential problems.

I have broken down the list further, but I want to stop along the way and touch base before I saw the branch off!
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:27 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
I few quick points

I like your objective rules.  Very in keeping and a good way to represent brood nests.

I think that the malanthrope should be an AV not a WE.  It is the same toughness of a tyrant.

I like your Broodlord a simple addition.  Hena and myself (or just Hena and I took credit for it I can't remember) designed one once that added a MW CC attack and had inspiring.

I also like your "shrouding" effect for the lictor.  Maybe this should be suggested on the Tau board to deal with the stealth inability to hide at range.
Author:  epilgrim [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:53 am ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
thanks to all for the comments!

ok so no changes to the spawning.

Synapse groups: the Malanthrope and Hive Tyrant / Tyrant Guard ideas replace the Hive Tyrant and HT/TW entries, but I wanted to make on additional change here:

Attack Group (1 Malanthrope unit) 200 points (Spawning rate, 2d3-1) spawing range of 1 to 5
Nexus Group (1 Hive Tyrant unit) 100 points (Spawning rate, 1d3+1) spawning range of 2 to 4
(Any Hive Tyrant may add a retinue of 3 Tyrant Guard units for +125 points)

I'm glad to here the objectives ideas were well recieved. I hear what Hena is saying about the Brood Nest, I was thinking of this as a One-Shot Warp gate, not as garrison or in conflict with the node creatures. So what if any is worth discussing further on these?

The malanthrope is just about right and not that hard to model (I'm working with a Genestealer Feeder Tendril Head and a 3rd Ed Zoe body)

Tyrant Guard, no overwhelming interest but I intend to keep them handy and give more supporting reasons down the road.  :)

0-1 Broodlord: I can deal with The Horror (Inspiring) and EA +1 MW for +50 points. glad to note that others had this idea!
PS: Genestealers OK, no 5+ save.

Lictor the "Hard to See" replaces the Invl. save. BTW it's from 2nd ed Space Marine with some Epic: A redux. At least some of you liked it.

thanks again.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:08 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
I like the Malanthrope in principle, but your stats are a little off.

First up, he's not a War Engine, he's a 4-wound Tyranid, not even a monsterous creature like a Hive Tyrant. LV status is about right (Which incidentally gives him a unique status as a synapse creature).

Armour: In 40k he has a 2+ save and a 6+ invulnerable save. How about 5+RA & invulnerable save.

He also has no ranged combat abilities of any sort. FF ---.

So basically, here's my recomendation;

Malanthrope
Type / Speed / Armour / Close Combat / Firefight
LV / 20cm / 5+ / 3+ / ---
Weapon / Range / Firepower / Notes
Ripper Tentacles / (base contact) / (assault weapons) / Extra Attacks (d3+2)
Walker, Infiltrator, Invulnerable Save, Fearless, Synapse, The Horror (Inspiring), Reinforced Armour.




I also support the Broodlord and Hard to see for Lictors.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 12:47 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
I agree with Hena, there's no precedent for renaming special rules (walker for Zoanthropes for example).
Author:  epilgrim [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:37 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
ok, so just leave it Inspiring and delete references to The Horror?

Malanthrope: Sorry about that (stats) I obviously misunderstood when we discussed it. thanks for the correction.

Bio-Plasma: currently only the Gargoyles have it in this list so there are no inconsistances. Carnifex has Spore Cysts.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:44 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!

(Hena @ Sep. 18 2006,04:33)
QUOTE
Chroma, we did have that and frankly they were too good at it then, Also the combo things made them extremely good. I wouldn't touch the spawning with a stick. Other than to mark that one uses spore after successful activation but before rolling for points.

Do you really find spawning to be very effective for anything other than Common Brood creatures, Hena?

And yeah, it made spawning "too good", but then came *three* "nerfs" of increased spawning costs, lessened spawning ability, and the need to roll a test for it to work.

Honestly, in my experience, spawning is practically a vestigial tail on the Tyranids, mainly used by Nodes to produce bodyguards, I barely consider it in my planning as, in battle, one third of my Synapse swarms are going to fail to do it and the rest will barely create enough to justify points on spores.
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:18 pm ]
Post subject:  something old, new, borrowed and buggy!
This is my attempt at a malanthrope, FW had him looking like a giant ripper, so I used a ripper to make him.



I would also call it an AV rather than a LV.  He isn't a MC because he doesn't ignore armour saves in close combat or do 2D6 armour pen against tanks.  He is still T6 4W, with a warp field, the same as many a tyrant.
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