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Results and Comments from Oakville
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Author:  Eric.R. [ Sun May 07, 2006 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Having played the v7 list this past Saturday in Oakville a couple of comments were noted by player and oppents in regards to the v7 list.

Garrisoning:

? ? Though still possible it only really means that you can garrison a Synapse Unit's (Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors), Exocrine 'A's ?(with an appropriate Synapse Creature) or Lictors. ?Garisoning a Synapse only is asking to lose and there is no point garisoning a Lictor formation when they could teleport where ever they choose. ?Now, placing the Exocrin 'A's around mid table does sound like a nice idea having 45cm IF weapons though they are sitting ducks as your opponent will more than likely activate first and target that formation.

? ? Having lost the ability to garrison Termagants now requires that formations made of of Brood Creature to march for the first, and sometimes second, turn to come into effective range of the enemy. ?All the will being depleated by concentrated attacks and possibly losing a Synapse Creature before it can encounter an opposing formation.


Spawning:

? ? Spawning at the end of the turn as two effects on the game: ?1) Clipping becomes extremely effective (especially against formations with common brood creature - 0 armour) 2) It is possible to return ALL formations to the table.

? ? Comments for 1) - Not being able to respond to attacks with the spawning of more troops can lead to easy loss of Synapse creatures and have the Tyranids running for cover -- a non-fluff tactic. ?This is most evident in Common Brood formations where there is little to no armour saves. ?More often than not the in turn spawning was a last ditch effort to stay alive and sometimes only prolonged the inevitable.

? ? Comments on 2) - Having every formation being able to activate AND respawn really got on peoples nerves (opponents and players alike). ?Being able to effectively return to full strength (minus units that will go to ground at the beginning of the turn) was a pain for opponents despite being able to clip the `Nids more effectively (All 3 opponents had played vs. the v6 lists previously). ?Though, having full strength at the beginning of each turn was nice for me. ?But, it is a lengthly process to Roll to see it it can spawn, roll spawning dice and then place units; it too long to be playable properly in tournaments where time is a factor. ?One thing that was relised was that having a Synapse node on the table is a good way to activate an ineffective unit and cause your opponent to respond to you not acting and hopfully make him run out of activations allowing the `Nids a series of activations.

? ? Another issue with the spawning was dealing with the D3 spawning . . . why D3? ?Having to explain to your opponent everytime how you are going to decern the die rolls was time wasting. ?Also, quicky reading D6's as D3's is tedious and slows down the game. ?Having compared the spawning costs from the V6 & v7, many in v7 are half of those in v6. ?So why not double all the costs and use D6's? ?The max/min values will be scaled appropriately (ie 2?) as will the average value. ?This will speed things up as not everyone is of quick mind after 10 hours of gaming.


Regeneration

? ? After explaining the difference between how Bio-Titans and WE in other armies worked opponent's become comfortable with the idea. ?Not happy but confortable. ?Though why half-DC with success on a 5+? ?It is the same, mathematicaly, to DC with success on 6+. ?Though the exception to this is odd-value DC (ie Hierodule DC 3) which will roll 2 dice which leads to a 2/3 success rate as opposed to the previous 1/2 success rate.


In all I am not a fan of the end turn Spawning, I can deal with the non-garrisoning Nodes but not being able to garrison any effectiveunit is pretty rough, and the mathematics of Regeneration and Spawning changes nothing but the time required to play the game. ?My 2 major suggestions would be return to v6 spawning as it does make sense fluff-wise since time has to be taken to locate and control new creatures, as it currently feels as if they just appear for no reason. ?And, return Termagants to 15cm move as to allow some garrison of troops.

There is probably more I have to say but I can not recall them at the momment. ?And, those who I played will ?hopefully add to this.
Author:  Jaldon [ Mon May 08, 2006 6:24 am ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Garrisoning:

   Though still possible it only really means that you can garrison a Synapse Unit's (Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors), Exocrine 'A's  (with an appropriate Synapse Creature) or Lictors.  Garisoning a Synapse only is asking to lose and there is no point garisoning a Lictor formation when they could teleport where ever they choose.  Now, placing the Exocrin 'A's around mid table does sound like a nice idea having 45cm IF weapons though they are sitting ducks as your opponent will more than likely activate first and target that formation.


Lictors can Garrison, Genestealers can Garrison, and Carnifexes can Garrison. One player in our local group just loves Carnies and fields at least 8-10 every battle, and yup they are garrisoned right up at mid-table. With 3+ Armor, and reasonable use of terrain, they are a scarey animal to try and tackle, much less ignore.

Having lost the ability to garrison Termagants now requires that formations made of of Brood Creature to march for the first, and sometimes second, turn to come into effective range of the enemy.  All the will being depleated by concentrated attacks and possibly losing a Synapse Creature before it can encounter an opposing formation.


Yes, the old days of just standing up the bugs at mid table and throwing them at the enemy are gone. Not only was this tactic beyond what the Nodes were intended to be (See thread Norn Queen Report #2 for further info), it made for a pretty dull game. Your Swarms will be depleted by enemy fire IF you don't use terrain wisely, and IF you try to just shove your swarms forward. Also adding a couple of Raveners to soak up hits wouldn't hurt either.

Spawning at the end of the turn as two effects on the game:  1) Clipping becomes extremely effective (especially against formations with common brood creature - 0 armour)


Opponents, with some very strong validity, were complaining that after expending multiple activations that a swarm could just spawn itself back to full strength right on the spot making gettting at the synapse creatures, or even slowing down the swarm, near impossible. In short, it often tooke 3/4 of an opponents army's combat power to humble a single brood swarm. Want to solve the '0' armor problem then take some Raveners they are armor 4+.

2) It is possible to return ALL formations to the table.


I don't understand how it is possible to return all formations back to the table as only brood creatures can be spawned back, Independents, and Synapse Creatures cannot be spawned back. Thus if a swarm's synapse creatures all die, that swarm is out of the battle.

As for spawning back ALL losses suffered in a turn, the new spawning rule is, well, new. Very new in fact and we are still trying to find the happy medium were it WILL work. The Tyranids ARE a WIP so immediate effective results in a change this major is just not possible.

Comments for 1) - Not being able to respond to attacks with the spawning of more troops can lead to easy loss of Synapse creatures and have the Tyranids running for cover -- a non-fluff tactic.  This is most evident in Common Brood formations where there is little to no armour saves.  More often than not the in turn spawning was a last ditch effort to stay alive and sometimes only prolonged the inevitable.


I find it interesting that Tyranids using cover would be considered a non-fluff tactic, this would require that the Hive Mind be totally stupid, mindless, and reacting only on instinct, none of which fit the Hive Mind.

I repeat Raveners ARE brood creatures, ARE infantry, and DO have a 4+ armor save.

As for the last ditch effort to stay alive, this was not the results we were achieving in the least over playtesting from v1.0 to v6.0. It was more like one moment the swarm looked as if it was going to get wiped out and then POOF up popped a brand new full strength swarm. Hardly the endless stream of bugs, and more like a majician waving his majic wand and 'creating' new rabbits out of thin air.

Having every formation being able to activate AND respawn really got on peoples nerves (opponents and players alike).  Being able to effectively return to full strength (minus units that will go to ground at the beginning of the turn) was a pain for opponents despite being able to clip the `Nids more effectively (All 3 opponents had played vs. the v6 lists previously).  

As I already stated we are still fleshing out the rule to prevent this from happening. We are aware of it and keep tracking the results down. We are confident we will get there soon.

But, it is a lengthly process to Roll to see it it can spawn, roll spawning dice and then place units; it too long to be playable properly in tournaments where time is a factor.

This is no more of a lengthy process then Rallying IF you are used to the system. All the proposed rules I have introduced are playtested for a bit within my own group at home to see if it is too confusing or will cause undue delay in the game, before I post it. Thus far you are the first to complain about a time factor. Not ALL synapse have to spawn the Tyranid player is allowed to target what they spawn.

Also, considering most Tournaments are going to be 2,700 to 3,500 points that returns around five to nine synapse formations average. With most falling into the range of 2,700 to 3,000 it drops to five to seven average.

One thing that was relised was that having a Synapse node on the table is a good way to activate an ineffective unit and cause your opponent to respond to you not acting and hopfully make him run out of activations allowing the `Nids a series of activations.


This is no different then an IG player doing the same thing with a Walker Platoon, or an Ork player 'wasting' an activation on a shot up to death KOS holding his Blitz, or a host of others. In short ALL armies can, and do, do it so it is not an unfair ability.

Thanks All....................

Jaldon :p
Author:  Chroma [ Mon May 08, 2006 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Quote (Jaldon @ 08 May 2006 (06:24))
I repeat Raveners ARE brood creatures, ARE infantry, and DO have a 4+ armor save.

I thought the "voting" had been for a 5+ Armour Ravener with infiltrator, when/why did they get put back to 4+ (with infiltrator)?
Author:  ragnarok [ Mon May 08, 2006 1:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Quote (Chroma @ 08 May 2006 (12:32))
Quote (Jaldon @ 08 May 2006 (06:24))
I repeat Raveners ARE brood creatures, ARE infantry, and DO have a 4+ armor save.

I thought the "voting" had been for a 5+ Armour Ravener with infiltrator, when/why did they get put back to 4+ (with infiltrator)?

The reason is in the norn queen report #2.

Something to do with representing it tunneling all of the time so is harder to hit/kill.  To compensate its FF is down to 6+, since it can't see anyhting when under ground.
Author:  Chroma [ Mon May 08, 2006 2:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
I fought Eric with my Ulthw? Eldar at the tournament.  It was the last battle of the day and we were in contention for the "Big Win".

I chose corner deployment (which, I feel, is one of the best tactics against Tyranids, especially now that they have a lot fewer garrisoning possibilities).
Author:  Chroma [ Mon May 08, 2006 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
And now from the Tyranid view:
Author:  Chroma [ Mon May 08, 2006 2:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
I've got to head off to work, but I'll post some more comments later.
Author:  Eric.R. [ Mon May 08, 2006 6:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
I find it interesting that Tyranids using cover would be considered a non-fluff tactic, this would require that the Hive Mind be totally stupid, mindless, and reacting only on instinct, none of which fit the Hive Mind.


I do not think the Hive Mind is stupid but the Brood creatures, especially common brood, should not be thought of as something to be protected as they are so expendable. ?Their whole purpose is to continually attacks since they cannot hold any objectives, though I know the Synapse can hold it but why waste a whole group sitting around.


Yes, the old days of just standing up the bugs at mid table and throwing them at the enemy are gone. Not only was this tactic beyond what the Nodes were intended to be (See thread Norn Queen Report #2 for further info), it made for a pretty dull game.

I can accept, grudgingly, that garrisoning nodes is out though I cannot find a fluff reason for it) but preventing the most basic unit, termagaunts, from doing it makes no sense. ?Yes, I can garrison Biovores, Carnifexes, Gernestealler, &c. but to what point? ?My opponent will just get a free round, or two if they retains, to kill them. ?Yes I can respawn some of them but at a cost. ?As for the old node tactic making a dull game . . . I cant see why it would. ?I found (as well as my opponents) that it made for a pretty exciting game as the action started quickly and both players had to think fast and retool there strategy. ?I played this way against SM, IG, Necrons, Eldar and Chaos SM and none were dull. ?Also, it never garunteed victory starting that close to the midline as I have only won 4 of 12+ games by doing this, mostly when the opponent is facing `Nids for the first time. ?A good thing to note is that your opponent has a great way of dealing with this before the game even starts: ?Strategicaly placing objectives and corner deployment (Which Chroma has done to me twice).

Opponents, with some very strong validity, were complaining that after expending multiple activations that a swarm could just spawn itself back to full strength right on the spot making gettting at the synapse creatures, or even slowing down the swarm, near impossible. In short, it often tooke 3/4 of an opponents army's combat power to humble a single brood swarm. Want to solve the '0' armor problem then take some Raveners they are armor 4+.

Well then these opponents are not thinking outside the box. ?`Nids are a very different army to the 3 core ones which means you have to adapt. ?Skimmers are deadly againts `Nids, as well as barrages and infiltrators. ?Spawning in turn actually slows the formation down as it can only move (most likely only 15cm depending on the Synapse Creature) or shoot. ?As for Raveners: true that does solve the 0-armour but I don't want to play an army that is designed by others because it is known to win. I want to field an army that suits me and conveys a certain feel.

This is no more of a lengthy process then Rallying IF you are used to the system. All the proposed rules I have introduced are playtested for a bit within my own group at home to see if it is too confusing or will cause undue delay in the game, before I post it. Thus far you are the first to complain about a time factor. Not ALL synapse have to spawn the Tyranid player is allowed to target what they spawn.

Spawning (Activation Check, XD3+Y spawning points then transfere units to the board) is a little more lengthy than rallying (rally roll, remove markers). ?True, with time it comes faster but not everyone is quick even after time esspecially when dealing with the fiddly D3 system. ?I do understand that not all have to spawn as I only tend to spawn for those who trully need it.

This is no different then an IG player doing the same thing with a Walker Platoon, or an Ork player 'wasting' an activation on a shot up to death KOS holding his Blitz, or a host of others. In short ALL armies can, and do, do it so it is not an unfair ability.

I never said it was unfair, just that the otherwise ineffective unit (since it cannot shoot, move, or assualt [though can be forced to by scouts]) when it has no brood creatures allows for a "PASS" with no effect on the game. ?Also, it was noted that the node could go on overwatch and after it spawns the new creatues will also be on overwatch with spawning is an end phase action.



Author:  nealhunt [ Mon May 08, 2006 9:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Quote (Eric.R. @ 07 May 2006 (20:03))
Regeneration

    After explaining the difference between how Bio-Titans and WE in other armies worked opponent's become comfortable with the idea.  Not happy but confortable.  Though why half-DC with success on a 5+?  It is the same, mathematicaly, to DC with success on 6+.  Though the exception to this is odd-value DC (ie Hierodule DC 3) which will roll 2 dice which leads to a 2/3 success rate as opposed to the previous 1/2 success rate.

I meant to reply, but apparently, my post disappeared into the ether...

It is not mathematically the same.  It has the same average result but the distribution is different.

To get the same average, a bunch of rolls at 6+ has a greater chance of not regenerating at all, offset by the chance of getting a very large number of successes all at once.

Using the 5+ gives more of a slow and steady regeneration and keeps a biotitan from going from death's door to full strength in one turn.

Quote
Opponents, with some very strong validity, were complaining that after expending multiple activations that a swarm could just spawn itself back to full strength right on the spot making gettting at the synapse creatures, or even slowing down the swarm, near impossible. In short, it often tooke 3/4 of an opponents army's combat power to humble a single brood swarm. Want to solve the '0' armor problem then take some Raveners they are armor 4+.


Well then these opponents are not thinking outside the box.  `Nids are a very different army to the 3 core ones which means you have to adapt.  Skimmers are deadly againts `Nids, as well as barrages and infiltrators.  Spawning in turn actually slows the formation down as it can only move (most likely only 15cm depending on the Synapse Creature) or shoot.

I think this exchange is missing the point.  The problem was not that action-based spawning was overpowered or that people couldn't think of tactics to counter it.  The problem was the feel it generated.

The intent of Spawning from Jervis' original list description was to give the Nids the feel of unending waves of tooth and claw without the Nid player needing to have huge hordes of units on the board from turn 1.

Action based spawning didn't do that.  It was just "POOF! We're back!"  It felt more like teleporting in a big gob of reinforcements than a steady stream.

The end-of-turn spawn (and it still needs adjusting) gives a steady stream.  There is no explosion of a single swarm from nothing to massive.  Each swarm is simply continuously reinforced.
Author:  nealhunt [ Mon May 08, 2006 9:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Oh, and on a side note, I maintain that a corner deployment against Nids on a 6x4 table is a bad idea.  It allows the Nids to cut down maneuver options more quickly than a long-edge deployment.
Author:  Eric.R. [ Tue May 09, 2006 12:08 am ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
It is not mathematically the same. ?It has the same average result but the distribution is different.

To get the same average, a bunch of rolls at 6+ has a greater chance of not regenerating at all, offset by the chance of getting a very large number of successes all at once.

Using the 5+ gives more of a slow and steady regeneration and keeps a biotitan from going from death's door to full strength in one turn.


Good point, though that does not change my argument. ?Since each die hs only 2 results (PASS/FAIL) and the result of any die has no effect on the result of any other die. ?Therby giving an expected result on a single regenration roll for a DC 8 WE as 1.33 for either system (same as the average of the probability distrubution, 1.33, for either system). ?

Now, if it was required that you achieve a specific number of successes than distribution becomes a factor as each die roll is no longer mutually exclusive. ?Although, the difference between DC vs. ?DC is very little outside the the fact you cannot get lucky and roll 8 for regeneration (1 in 1679616 chance).






Author:  Jaldon [ Tue May 09, 2006 4:38 am ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
I can accept, grudgingly, that garrisoning nodes is out though I cannot find a fluff reason for it


It is fully explained in Norn Queen Report #2 where this information was drawn from.

Yes, I can garrison Biovores, Carnifexes, Gernestealler, &c. but to what point?  My opponent will just get a free round, or two if they retains, to kill them.

It is going to take quite a bit of work to pinhole 8-10 Carnifexes, and as the local Nid players don't have any qualms about using cover, it isn't anywhere as easy as you make it sound.

As for the old node tactic making a dull game . . . I cant see why it would.  I found (as well as my opponents) that it made for a pretty exciting game as the action started quickly and both players had to think fast and retool there strategy.

#1: The reason it was done is partly fluff, and once again the answer is found in the Norn Queen Report #2,

#2: and partly to prevent the unbeatable tie breaker. Basically the tactic swamps an opponent before they have a chance to maneuver under a veratable wall of claws garrisoned at mid-table via nodes. By the time the opponent has time to re-cover from the initial assault the Synapse Creatures and nodes have spawned another wall of bugs and they go in and finish off the enemy. By the end of turn three there isn't enough left of the opponent to make it even a remotely interesting battle.

A good thing to note is that your opponent has a great way of dealing with this before the game even starts:  Strategicaly placing objectives and corner deployment (Which Chroma has done to me twice).


I would thank an opponent for giving me a corner deploy, it just makes it easier to box them in, and allows me to have more depth. In that case the line would almost never get broken. I haven't lost a battle with Nids yet when the opponent used a corner deploy.

Well then these opponents are not thinking outside the box.

I also said it doesn't reflect the feel JJ wants created. The Nid list IS going to change, like it or not it just isn't a finished product yet and creating the proper 'feel' IS important. Now this has required that all involved think outside the box ALL THE TIME, to flesh out possible problems.

I see that you wish to return to the 'old system', I do understand this, but I also know it doesn't work and can be too easily min/maxed by unscrupulous Nid players, so change was nessecary anyways. Truth is the use of v3.0 in the upcoming SG event could lead to a possible total disaster IF one of these min/max players has figured out what we already know.

As for Raveners: true that does solve the 0-armour but I don't want to play an army that is designed by others because it is known to win


I really don't know where this one came from, I never said anything about Raveners being "Game Winners', but it is a good way to slow down the rate losses are suffered at. Don't use them, nobody said you have to, but I would advise trying to use cover during your approach moves.

Change is hard, I do understand this, but in this case it is going to continue to move forward toward the objectives laid out not only by the fluff, but also by JJ. As I have stated before read the Norn Queen Report #2 for more detailed information.

Thanks All.................

Jaldon :p
Author:  Eric.R. [ Tue May 09, 2006 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
It is not a matter of accepting change, which I fully accepted once I started a `Nid army.  It is just that as we seem to progress forward the complications seem to increase, i.e. special rules, special rules for special rules, special rules for abilities.  

And ultimately I now I will be playing whatever official rules come out `cause I am gaming for the enjoyment.  But until then I will continue to voice my opinion in hopes it will aid in the completion on a playable and enjoyable list for both player and opponent.

As for returning to the V6 rules, the only 2 things I am really adament about (pending any future alterations) are in turn spawning and 15cm Termagant.  The other issues are livable albeit a tad fiddly as they stand.
Author:  Tactica [ Tue May 09, 2006 3:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Eric R.

Be assured, I don't think your comments are falling on deaf ears.

Jaldon's known to be one of the more open-minded Champions. I also think he's truly seeking exactly what you are after - a fun list for both player and opponent. I think this is a very crucial element that's not always considered, but I think you are safe in the list you've chosen to play due to the champion's perspective and dedication he's shown this list thus far.

Regards to key two elements. The spawning mid turn vs. end of turn is a potentially large issue that I've hinted at in my last bat rep here.

Now - our game was an odd one (scenario) and was uneven points, heavy terrain, and skewed campaign based lists... but even in that battle - the *advantages* of every formation spawning at the end of the turn automatically with a 2+ roll instead of sacrificing movement/engagement/shooting action to instead spawn mid-turn - was realized in that game. All of the dead broods were spawned back every turn.

So where you used to have to wait until a formation activated, then widdle it down to nothing - and possibly force the nid player to activate that formation first and spawn if he wanted to keep it alive in turn 2... now he just pushes forward with a tripple in turn 1, then spawns in the end phase, then pushes forward with whatever is needed in turn 2 - or assaults, and then spawns in the end of turn 2.

I think the 'end phase' auto spawning effect has exponentially increased the speed of the army from what it was. I also have seen this as an increase in the net spawned bugs. The reason is that before, my opponent would be forced to contemplate whether he wanted to sacrifice move/shoot/engage for spawning... many times he would not do so - so he simply didn't spawn back as much of the dead in those games as he wasn't spawning as often.

Its also worth noting that the old rules allowed you to spawn a terrible amount back to a single formation when you did spawn. The old rules also allowed a nid player to have more AA cover than any other list out there due to it dieing in one formation after shooting at fliers - then being spawned back elswhere and firing again at fliers in the same turn! At least the new rules do fix how much a given formation can spawn back to itself and have solved the AA cycling problem. However, they've created a new problems in that they've allowed the army to get much faster so they engage more, and they are spawning more as the entire army is attempting to spawn each turn instead of decision based spawning with penalties for doing so.

As long as that was the desired effect, and its balanced - so be it. I do feel their will need to be an uptick in many bug points as a result of this speed increase and increase in spawning frequency though.

Cheers,
Author:  Cobalt [ Wed May 10, 2006 12:07 pm ]
Post subject:  Results and Comments from Oakville
Hi all,

thanks for the report and comments. I agree with you in many points, yet also like the idea of final turn spawning, for all the reasons developped...

I also appreciate what Jaldon is doing in explaining the reasons behind the changes he proposes..

And that's way I would like to hear what you guys think of mixing both rally phase spawning ("natural spawning") and marshall order spawning ("focused spawning").

What would be the drawbacks of having those two possiblities?

Focused spawning: allow a formation to spawn upon order (Needs activation roll, then roll 2D6 and keep the best and/or use mycetic spores (1max? 3max? 1D3 each, 15 pts).

Natural spawning : Roll for rallying (not activation), and spawn 1D3 (+eventually bonus for synapse creature (this should be kept low), no mycetic spores).

The rationale would be to allow a small amount of spawning where you choose to, at the expense of other actions and this costs mycetic spores. And reduce the amount of "natural spawning" yet ensure a low but constant flow of creatures...

Please let me know what you thin of this "mix"...
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