Tactical Command
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Big bugs are they big enough
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5154		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:31 am ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
On the walk into work I've been thinking about the uncommon bugs and bio titans.  I'm worried that they have become too common.

I know that JJ and J want a more swarmy feel to the list, but I think that can be achieved by the common broods alone, and that the uncommon broods should be large hard nuts.

Taking a real world example you could pretend that nids are like Driver ants.  They move in massive swarms (ie millions strong) though the forest eating anything they come across, not stopping for anything.

Now in these swarms they have workers and soldiers (common and uncommon) now the soldiers are dead hard but very rare.  I think we should go back to this for the uncommon.

For example carnies.  I would like them to go back to 50 (even 60pts each) and make them unstoppable (heck I'm willing to pay 70pts a shot and have them with a CC TK(1) attack).  Thus they become an expesive specialised unit (ie carnies anti arnour and overkill for taking on infantry).  The 1/3 limit should stop people taking too many of them and making an elite army rather than a swarm.

Next point criticals on biotitans, and other WEs

I have to admit that I've never liked the nid criticals, however I've accepted them.  A 1/36 chance of dying and a 5/36 (I think) chance of losing a TK(1) attack, well there are another 3 of them.

However the recent round of adaptations has reduced the number of TK attacks to 2.  Those a critical removes half of the biotitans anti titans ability.  It is like telling an imperial player that their reaver has to lose one of its turbo lasers per critical.

Perhaps this could be looked at.

Ideas I have;

1) change critical to 1-5 -1DC, 6 dead

2) keep the critical hit table but let WE regenerate be "regain one TK attack or 1 DC per 6 rolled"
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:40 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
The 1/3 limit should stop people taking too many of them and making an elite army rather than a swarm.


Nids can get WEs and other heavy hitters in the Synapse, Independent, and Uncommon points allocations.  You can reasonably expect to have 2/3 of your army as non-broods.  If that non-brood option becomes almost all 50+ point models instead of largely 35-50 point models, you end up with the possibility of an EXTREMELY elite bug army with an average point-per-unit on par with Space Marines.

My only real Nid opponent favors large bugs and in the last version of the list, I faced several battles where there were ~50 opposing models on the board in the entire army.  That's about as far from a horde as it gets.  As it is, even with Jaldon's downgrades, you can still come close to that.

If anything, the remaining large bugs could still be brought down in size/points.  I think the idea of reducing the biotitans' number of attacks, but making them multi-TK is a great idea because it specializes them.  As long as they remain generalist units, I think Nid armies will continue to include way too many big, elite units to get the proper feel.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
Quote (nealhunt @ 31 Jan. 2006 (15:40))
Nids can get WEs and other heavy hitters in the Synapse, Independent, and Uncommon points allocations. ?You can reasonably expect to have 2/3 of your army as non-broods. ?If that non-brood option becomes almost all 50+ point models instead of largely 35-50 point models, you end up with the possibility of an EXTREMELY elite bug army with an average point-per-unit on par with Space Marines.

When you say "non-broods" do you just mean non-Common broods?

Are you saying you feel people aren't using enough 'Gaunts? ?Or what is your idea of "swarm" vs "elite"?

The last game I played, at 3000 points, had around 1700 points in Brood Creatures, a single DC3 War engine, and over 90 models... and it kicked butt!

With insta-kill crits and no shields, I find large DC creatures more of a risk than they're worth most times. ?At 3000 points I could get 3 bio-titans and that's a third of my army right there. ?Orks and Guard are going to eat those things for breakfast with all their TK shots and even massed fire is going to quickly whittle them down. ?I find it more advantageous to take lots of Broods... cuz I can always bring them back later too!

Two-thirds is the *maximum* amount of non-Brood creatures one can take be the very definitions set up in the list! ?Certainly someone can push it to that "extreme", but I don't see it being that effective of a list. ?I feel the armylist *should* allow a great deal of variability, if someone wants to take a more "elite" list, then so be it, but I don't think that "elite" list is horribly over-powered, and has some glaring weaknesses.
Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 5:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
Yes, I meant non-common broods.  1/4 common brood requirement and some mycetic spores to spawn them back easily leaves 2/3 of the army for just big stuff.

Certainly someone can push it to that "extreme", but I don't see it being that effective of a list.  I feel the armylist *should* allow a great deal of variability, if someone wants to take a more "elite" list, then so be it, but I don't think that "elite" list is horribly over-powered, and has some glaring weaknesses.


I think there is plenty of room for variety without allowing Nids to field an army of primarily large/elite units.

As far as effectiveness of a big bug list - I think the fact that the trend was steadily upwards in size clearly indicates that many of the regular bug players felt that large bugs were a very viable army.  In fact, from Tactica's Tau/Nid batrep, his group apparently felt that the SHT bug version was the only viable option previously.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
Quote (nealhunt @ 31 Jan. 2006 (16:53))
As far as effectiveness of a big bug list - I think the fact that the trend was steadily upwards in size clearly indicates that many of the regular bug players felt that large bugs were a very viable army. ?In fact, from Tactica's Tau/Nid batrep, his group apparently felt that the SHT bug version was the only viable option previously.

It's really too bad that the lot of us can't all get together and play some games together and mash all our experiences and expectations together.

The "SHT bug army" got the exact *opposite* reaction in our local group, particularly before there was any regeneration and what have you. ?The thought that your mighty bio-titan could just *whiff* away to a single shot (hyperbole, obviously) was enough to prevent people from taking them. ?Hierodules were often ignored as they weren't fearless and often prevented garrisoning, so swarms of Common and Uncommon ?single-wound broods ,with a couple Lictor units thrown in, became the most... common... army around here. ?And they could be massively effective.

In the current rules, I can get a Hierophant for 300 points... or 15 Raveners! ?I'd much prefer the Raveners, and I can make more as the game progresses... other than have cool spiky things on the table, I can't see the strong draw of bio-titans or large masses of SH bugs.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
I'm not sure if I'm going to be able to get any big games in this week, so does anyone want to try to give this "Super Heavy Bugs" list a spin?

Tyranid Army List - 3000 points

Synapse
Dominatrix
2 Tyranid Warrior Groups
3 Lesser Nodes

Independent Broods
Hierophant
Hierophant
Hydraphant

Common Broods
10 Hormagaunts
10 Gargoyles
11 Raveners
12 Termagants

Uncommon Broods
1 Carnifex
2 Hierodules
6 Mycetic Spores
Author:  semajnollissor [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
I think one things that hasn't been mentioned is the prcticality of larger bugs, from a real-life perspective.

I've been checking eBay off-and-on for the last few months, looking to pick up some tyranid infantry sprues, but they are really hard to get. There are far more big bug blisters available than there are swarm boxes. So, if I really wanted to run a tyranid list, it's almost a necessity to run mostly big bugs. I think that (at least for now) a big bug list should be allowed just out of fairness for new nid players (though I don't like it as a concept).
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Jan 31, 2006 11:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
My army normally only has 25% common broods, hwever this is mainly due toa lacking of models and a desire not to proxie (my other two armies are deathwatch and sisters and they haven't been baptised as themselves yet, it feels wrong that their first outing is as tyranids).  Though I will probably proxie when my imperial guard turn up, just to see what 42 stands of termigaunts canreally do.  :D

However back to the topic at hand, Biotitans.

I personally want to take two in a 2K7 point army, however the recent change in the armament and the critical hit tables neutering that has made me start thinking along other lines (such as all Harridan synpase options).
Author:  Jaldon [ Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:33 am ]
Post subject:  Big bugs are they big enough
Over the weekend the below list was fielded by another Nid player.

Synapse: 2xTyranid Warrior Groups, 1xHive Tyrant Group, 2xLesser Nodes, 1xHarridan

Independents: 2xExpecorator, 2xLictor

Uncommon: 6xSpores, 2xZoanthropes, 3xHierodule, 7xHaruspex

Common: 22xRaveners, 4xGargoyle, 16xHormogaunts

This is a 2,700 point army and it did pretty bang up job of chewing up an Eldar player.

For the record I do not like the present criticals, and am working on some alternatives, and as always taking suggestions.

When you go to see v6.2, which is up now, the TK weapons are now all D3.

Long Range Weapons are not really going to be in the cards right now, I would really like to keep the Bio-Titans close range beasties. A thought I have been tossing around to address the desire NOT to take them is to increase their speed to 25cm and change the CC to 3+.

I would rather go this road right now to see if we can make it work then go the simple route and just stick long ranged guns on them.

Actually, I'm not sure if the prices are right for the Bio titan sized bugs. Mainly as they don't have any long range weapons. Also ATML fitted with close combat weapons can have way better titans in CC.


The AMTL is not a finished list, nor a balanced list yet, and cannot be used to draw comparisons from. There is another thread both on Epicomms AMTL and SG dealing with this issue and there is no need to discuss the AMTL/OGBM issue here.

2) keep the critical hit table but let WE regenerate be "regain one TK attack or 1 DC per 6 rolled"

This is an interesting Idea :;):

Thanks All

Keep me in line  :oops:

Jaldon :p
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