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[Rules] Blast marker idea!
ragnarok
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 10:42 am 
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I know we are waiting for the mew boss nid, however I have been bouncing this idea around my head for a while, so I thought I would run it past you all.

A main problem that some food things...er I mean opponents seem to see witht he list is the way we ignore BMs as we triple across the board into their lines.

Having read the background, watched a program on soldier ants, and Zulu, I came up with a way to get the unstoppable horde as well as BMs into the equation.

Bits of the background point towards a tactic of denial to lead the nids into traps.  If a world is heavily defended hive fleets have been known to give up on them and find easier prey elsewhere (which is logical, since if they can't win the planet and just kep attacking they will wipe themselves out)

Also the idea that a swarm coming under heavy barrage just prior to an assault and not be effected seems strange, their "lines" will be a mess, with some broods  having no support (due to the ones near them being killed).

Also the hive mind isn't stupid.  If a position is well defended it will pull back its troops to attack elsewhere (it takes time and energy to grow new ones).

Well enough talk time for the idea.

Nids take BMs as usual.

Synpase, uncommon and (maybe) independant creatures all have ATSKNF.

In the end phase all broken nid formations automatically rally and all BM on nid formations are removed.

This shouldn't effect play that much, since most formations will be too big to break in a single turn.  However if the opponent concentrates fire then he can put formations out of action for a turn.

What you all thnk?

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:46 pm 
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That's okay, I suggested it here to see if I was a idea to persue or not.

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Jaldon
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:41 am 
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While itself it isn't a bad idea, and is similar to some other ideas that have been proposed before concerning Blast Markers and Nids (Even one by me).

The problem is that any rule to take it into account is either to difficult to write clearly, and/or it negates the unstoppable 'wall of bugs' of the Nid background.

I know I have tried, but remain open to a solution that doesn't involve either of the problems above.

Jaldon :p

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nealhunt
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 2:57 pm 
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With that rule, Nids would become extremely vulnerable to FF.  As it is, a successful FF will drive some Nids out of counter-charge range but leaves them otherwise intact.  Some will even be able to countercharge even after the FF.  Basically, it's still dicey to get that close.

OTOH, if they actually break after a FF, it makes a tremendous difference on how fast they can return to the fight and even with TSKNF, it's a pretty dramatic increase in the ability to get hackdown hits.

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RavenBlackwolf
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:30 pm 
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Hello everyone, I haven't posted on this site since the summer but I have been lurking and play testing since last december. I just wanted to chime in on this particular topic.

Ever since I first started playing with the list I have found that the ability to completely ignore the detremental effects of blast markers and lost engagements means that the overall list feels too powerful. The opponent generally feels helpless as its nearly required to annihilate the tyranid forces in order to win, something which is not neccessary to defeat any other opponent in epic. Because of this I have been playing with a very simple ammendment to the rules which I find works very well. If a tyranid formation looses an engagement and has not activated that turn it looses the ability to activate that turn. Also the formation can no longer hold objectives that turn.

From the recent battle reports I have been reading it appears that taking advantage of the fact that this does not happen is the main reason why most people are winning. By using this house rule I have found that the games I play with my opponents are generally very close, although I still manage to win more than half the time.

I know that fluff arguments will be brought up against this proposition, so in response to them: First this does not in any way diminish the "unstopable wave" feel of the list according to opponents, secondly the idea that a tyranid force would be completely unreactive to a charging company of leman russes is totally unrealistic. There are a large number of fluff articles which talk about sudden counter assaults and stubborn defenses driving off the tyranid hordes, at least for a time.

Oh and as for the tactical validity, as stated above I have been quite successful with this modification.

Dave

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ragnarok
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Well they (and possible stealers) could get TSKNF, and/or give them all leader.  Thus if they get the attack inbefoer being shot at then they are at an advantage of having no BMs, however if they do get shot up ten they willn't get such a big bonus in combat resolution

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Honda
 Post subject: [Rules] Blast marker idea!
PostPosted: Sat Jan 07, 2006 3:20 am 
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Our group for the most part is quite new to Epic, though a fair amount of us have been with all the other versions and are quite accomplished in other systems, including historicals and 40K. So, I can't say we're EA veterans, but we have a pretty healthy dose of sharp people who look at things critically. Our group also has the benefit of having people who come to the table to win, but also have a good time, which makes for great games.

As a somewhat frequent opponent of Tyranids, I can't really say that I am against how BM's are currently handled. I don't think that the bugs are invincible. Are they tough? You bet. Can they be beat? Yes.

Now perhaps my perpective as a Mechanized Tau player lets me look and fight against them differently than other lists, but I never think after we've lined up that I don't have a chance even though our bug player usually brings 2-3 of the big Bio-titans. We've learned that when a lot of big bugs show up, then the Tyranids tactical options go down. Yes they can take objectives and hold them, but they can't take enough. So then they are faced with trying to decide, do they try to go out and kill something (e.g. BTS), or do they hold their objectives and look to capitalize on an opponents' mistake.

So, Tyranids are scary to play against, but they should be. I don't think they should be neutered just because they aren't a push over or that people struggle against them. I do agree with Jaldon on his comments of what the army has turned into (Big bugs vs. hordes), but I think the psychological effect of blowing away a bunch of critters only to see them keep advancing and/or regenerating is the "right" feel for the list.

As this list gets refined, I think it should give opponents pause, but not because they are yawning. If the former occurs because opponents have to be sharp and adapt due to their tactics which work on other armies don't apply to  the bugs, then good. Anyone can be a good general when things are easy. A great one rises above their circumstances.

My two yen...

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