Tactical Command
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[List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5129		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:07 am ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Greetings!

I've just uploaded WIP5.7 to my webspace for immediate download, enjoy!

http://home.cogeco.ca/~kpetker/

Changes:
-changed Uncommon Brood spawning cost to "3 pips"
-added bio-cannons to Dom and Hydraphant
-removed warp blast from Hydraphant
-changed Genestealers and Lictors back to CC4+
-used edited ragnarok's flavour text for Synapse Nodes
-added bio-weapon stats and alternate model appendices

I think that's it. ?Please give it a look over and let me know what you think!
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:59 am ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Just a quick reply.  I'll read it in depth later.

Uncommon at thre pips.  Propably a right choice.  I know N0-1 almost died at the easy that my carni brood kept comming back.  This way spawning uncomon means you need to use mycetic spores.

Screamer killer.  4 attacks 2 MW.  Their number of attacks has doubled!  I thought we were going to leave their CC alone and give then a low FF to represent the odd spinebank or devourer.

Hive tyrants (okay a carry over from last version).  They just arn't stabby/shootie enough.  Not sure how to deal with this. but they have more attacks than carnies in 40K.
possible cataylst +1FF or CC.

A3.25.  Can I be added? :D
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:29 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Yes to the spawning change. Yes to biocannon on dom.

What happened with the carni?? Way too overpowered. Ditch the bioplasma, give it 'spine banks 15cm small arms FF6+'. Reduce MW attacks to +1.

Tyrant is ok. (They have 1 extra base attack over a carni in 40k but at lower strength, and they can't get as many upgrades as carnis so it balances out). There is also its points to consider  - if we boost it we will have to increase points.
It does need something in its statline to say it has small arms (maybe just added to VC statline).

Ditch the commander ability on lictors :;):

I would like to have a serious playtest of harridans and do something more worthwhile with them... they are too expensive and elite at present I think.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (Markconz @ 13 Dec. 2005 (20:29))
What happened with the carni?? Way too overpowered. Ditch the bioplasma, give it 'spine banks 15cm small arms FF6+'. Reduce MW attacks to +1.

Hmmm... an extra attack might have crept onto the Screamer-Killer during editting, but I still think it should be a pure CC beast, like it's 40k counterpart which has no shooting attacks. ?Now that I've worked out the fearless thing with them, they've become a *lot* more useful... and they'll always have a problem with skimmers! ?*laugh* ?

Tyrant is ok. (They have 1 extra base attack over a carni in 40k but at lower strength, and they can't get as many upgrades as carnis so it balances out). There is also its points to consider ?- if we boost it we will have to increase points. It does need something in its statline to say it has small arms (maybe just added to VC statline).

As long as it has a shooting attack, I don't think it needs to have a secondary small arms attack listed as well... what would it even be? ?I almost feel that the Tyrant needs some kind of FF +1A weapon... Psychic Scream or something.

I would like to have a serious playtest of harridans and do something more worthwhile with them... they are too expensive and elite at present I think.
Hmmm... 150 points for 4DC of skimming death doesn't seem that expensive to me. ?I don't use them that often, but when I have, they've seemed pretty effective, popping up over woods while the rest of its brood fires from cover has worked well (just don't hit your children with the breath template! ?*sigh*)

As to the commander on Lictors... I'd like to see attempts at abuse first... cuz *sigh* ?I really like the feel of it.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (ragnarok @ 13 Dec. 2005 (08:59))
A3.25. ?Can I be added? :D

Sorry ragnarok!  I've just been copying that appendix from Maksim's original!

I hope I can get added too!  *laugh*
Author:  Chroma [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 9:51 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Oh yeah, one other thing I changed:

-bio-plasma breath to 30cm/D3xAA5+ instead of using the template (template stays for ground attack).

Using a template for AA is rather fiddly... since all models under the template are hit does that mean ground targets can get hit when it's used for AA and all that bother...

I've been following the ATML development of the template into a BP weapon and I'm thinking, once they finalize it, we should look at standardizing the use of the template across lists.
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:35 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (Chroma @ 13 Dec. 2005 (19:47))
Quote (Markconz @ 13 Dec. 2005 (20:29))
What happened with the carni?? Way too overpowered. Ditch the bioplasma, give it 'spine banks 15cm small arms FF6+'. Reduce MW attacks to +1.

Hmmm... an extra attack might have crept onto the Screamer-Killer during editting, but I still think it should be a pure CC beast, like it's 40k counterpart which has no shooting attacks. ?Now that I've worked out the fearless thing with them, they've become a *lot* more useful... and they'll always have a problem with skimmers! ?*laugh* ?

Tyrant is ok. (They have 1 extra base attack over a carni in 40k but at lower strength, and they can't get as many upgrades as carnis so it balances out). There is also its points to consider ?- if we boost it we will have to increase points. It does need something in its statline to say it has small arms (maybe just added to VC statline).

As long as it has a shooting attack, I don't think it needs to have a secondary small arms attack listed as well... what would it even be? ?I almost feel that the Tyrant needs some kind of FF +1A weapon... Psychic Scream or something.

I would like to have a serious playtest of harridans and do something more worthwhile with them... they are too expensive and elite at present I think.

Hmmm... 150 points for 4DC of skimming death doesn't seem that expensive to me. ?I don't use them that often, but when I have, they've seemed pretty effective, popping up over woods while the rest of its brood fires from cover has worked well (just don't hit your children with the breath template! ?*sigh*)

As to the commander on Lictors... I'd like to see attempts at abuse first... cuz *sigh* ?I really like the feel of it.
The trouble is 'traditional' screamer killers used to have a FF option (the bioplasma), and the current builds often have one as well (eg spine banks - only 5 points on a >100 point model). Also on a costly investment like a carni it makes sense to give it some small defence against skimmer enemies. (I was actully under the impression we had already discussed this :o0 )

Regarding the tyrant - oops for some reason I was under the impression that you needed small arms abiltiy listed to FF (temproary brain lapse - please ignore ?:D ).

I wouldn't give the tyrant anything else - It is a very tough ?synapse source which alone makes it worth a lot of points. On top of that it is also one of the most lethal assault units in the game (Commander, 2+ CC with +1A MW, FF4).

Regarding Harridans:
I'm not saying harridans are not effective for their points (indeed the reverse is true!) I would like to see them toned down. Orginally their role was a synapse source and boost for gargoyles rather than anything else - now they are a deadly combat unit insteadl - which can even transport Hive Tyrants! ?:80: ????

Ie the problem with Harridans is that they have been priced and given abilities which destroy their original role of being a suitable synapse source for gargoyles - gargoyles currently have no way to get cheap synapse). To bring this back in line I would like to see something like the following which should justify a points reduction (to 100 points):

-DC3 (and critical kills outright same as other SHT - harridan models are relatively small - I'm not sure why it has been given so much DC at present, especially when a dom only has 6 DC currently!!), CC4+ (they have delicate wings to protect and shouldn't have the same prowess as titans ), FF4+ (Bioplasma Breath should make FF potential nastier).

- Gargantuan claws - replace with Monstrous claws and make them MW... (a flappy bird thing just shouldn't have the strength of a titan).

- Biocannons - make Venom cannons. 30cm Ap5/AT6. These guns just are not that big on the model (eg compare to exocrine, dominatrix cannon), plus it already has a nasty MW breath attack and long range shooting does not suit this creatures primary role of being synapse for Gargoyles.

- Can transport up to 6 gargoyles (ie one 40k brood). Leave the other transport options for the vituperator. The vituperator probably also needs work but I'll leave that for another day...

And good idea on the using the standardised conventions for template weapons form the AMTL list! ?:8):



Author:  Markconz [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (Hena @ 13 Dec. 2005 (20:48))
Umm... Dominatrix has 8DC and Hierophant has 6.

Hierophant! Apologies for my brain again - I better have another coffee  :p  :laugh:
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:07 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (Hena @ 13 Dec. 2005 (20:43))
Bio-titans. Add the 'can step over terran smaller than legs and shorter than between the legs' kind of thing. I dislike the idea that Imperial Titans have an edge on moving over terrain. Yes the hierophant has agility, but it still is stopped by small cliffs.

A while ago we discussed giving the bio-titans this ability, and also the 'may move over any terrain without penalty (even impassableterrain)' rule from epic40k for the hierophants.

It was met with widespread enthusiam but has since got lost in the mass of posts I think. So yes I agree with Hena that we need this update for the biotitans.
Author:  ragnarok [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
[quote="Hena,13 Dec. 2005 (21:43)"][/quote]

Zoanthrope. That thing should really have the Agility.

Agree here. ?In my gameagainst NO-1 vI found it somewhat annoying that it didn't want to cross the river with the`rest of the brood.


Bio-titans. Add the 'can step over terran smaller than legs and shorter than between the legs' kind of thing. I dislike the idea that Imperial Titans have an edge on moving over terrain. Yes the hierophant has agility, but it still is stopped by small cliffs.

The problem with this is that I (and I'm sure many others) converted the bio titans, due to lack of models. ?My model stands about 3 inches to the ankle and 1 1/2 inches to the knee joint and hips.

Bio titans are just to variable to give a rule based on the model.
Author:  Markconz [ Tue Dec 13, 2005 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (ragnarok @ 13 Dec. 2005 (21:08))
Bio titans are just to variable to give a rule based on the model.

Not so - GW will eventually release a standard model which they say will be approximately the same size and type as the previous Hierodule (now called hierophant), so that is what we are working with and should be developing rules for.

Aslo if we just give them a rule that they can they can move over any terrain without penalty (which is very nidlike) then we only need to worry about stepping heights etc for the dominatrix and hydraphant.
Author:  Chroma [ Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:20 am ]
Post subject:  [List] New WIP list: 5.7 posted
Quote (Markconz @ 13 Dec. 2005 (22:07))
A while ago we discussed giving the bio-titans this ability, and also the 'may move over any terrain without penalty (even impassableterrain)' rule from epic40k for the hierophants.

Well, I think this might be solved by re-wording agility to be something like "the model may choose to be treated as infantry", then, when a river comes up, a bio-titan can step over it without problem, and when in woods, it can lurk about...

That addresses everything except cliffs... how common are 2cm/knee-height cliffs in people's terrain collections?
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