[Lists] Are we a hoard army? |
|
ragnarok
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army?  Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 11:07 am |
|
| Brood Brother |
 |
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England
|
|
| Top |
|
 |
|
tneva82
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:00 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606
|
| Quote (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2005 (11:40)) | | Although I don't know how good other lists AA fire is. |
Orks: 30cm 2xAA6+ for their AA ground unit.
15cm AA5+ on fighta bommaz though those are cheap and plentifull.
IG: 45cm 2xAA5+ on ground unit
15cm AA5+ & 30cm AA5+ on fighter
Eldars: 45cm pulse AA, 75cm precise AA
SM: 60cm AA4+ ground unit
Chaos: 45cm 3xAA5+.
Those are ones I have encountered. So yes 30cm is bit on short side, comparable to orks in that regard(though kicks crap out of feral ork AA  ) though zoanthrope kicks lot more punch than ork AAwagon for extra 15pts._________________ www.tneva.net
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:11 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
|
IMO ... 'Nids = Horde Army ... Yes ! ... 
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
tneva82
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:14 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606
|
| Quote (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2005 (12:09)) | But any AA on flyers means that they can do interceptions. With ground based AA. You just put them around and hope they can be used to do something  .
Btw Ragnarok. Should that horde instead of hoard? |
True. Orks suffer in that regard though as the one they are going to intercept can fire before orks shoot + by the time ork fighters come in enemy flyers have already made their attack run(unless you want to risk rolling with 3+ initiave for CAP action that is...).
For others that applies better yes. But I would still say tyranid AA is comparable or even better than ork one. Losing to rest though(especially eldar one!)._________________ www.tneva.net
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
ragnarok
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:55 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:43 pm
Posts: 2084
Location: Reading, England
|
| Quote (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2005 (12:09)) | | Btw Ragnarok. Should that horde instead of hoard? |
Maybe, iot all depends what sort of english I'm using. The offical version or my fan version.  .
Now, since this has developed into a talk on AA weapons. Have any of you managed to use the biotitans breath weapon in an AA roll? I'm having difficulty in getting the whole use a template on aircraft to work.
I'm thinking that its' rules should be changed to
Breath weapon, breath template MW5+ and 4x AA5+MW range 20cm
_________________
Tyranid air marshal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:17 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
| Quote (ragnarok @ 18 Nov. 2005 (12:55)) | | Breath weapon, breath template MW5+ and 4x AA5+MW range 20cm |
I did change the breath weapon stats in the WIP list, but maybe it's not clear by the nomenclature I used.
"Bio-plasma Breath Flamer/30cm MW5+/AA5+ MW, ignore cover"
Probably should be 2xAA5+... has anyone ever gotten more than two aircraft under the template?
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Chroma
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:28 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9684
Location: Montréal, QC, Canada
|
| Quote (Legion 4 @ 18 Nov. 2005 (12:11)) | | IMO ... 'Nids = Horde Army ... Yes ! ... |
The problem is, Tyranids are different *kinds* of hordes at different times during the different Phases of their invasion.
From the BFG article that describes the Phases:
Phase III: Attack
The Tyranid invasion is begun by the hiveships releasing spores into the target?s planets atmosphere. The mix typically includes mycetic spores for landing ?vanguard? and ?main force? ground assault swarms, spore ?mines? of a corrosive, poisonous and/or explosive capability, zoomorphic symbiotes and parasites, plus fertilisation, weather modification and necrotic varieties. Flying creatures are also dispatched, primarily swarms of winged Gaunt species tended to by the
dropship-sized Harridan brood organisms.
Phase IV: Subdual
In the initial phases of invasion the flying swarms make concentric attacks in an effort to herd lifeforms into the path of ground swarms. Pre-existing Vanguard organisms will move to join the advance, presumably sharing their information of local DNA, topography and resistance with higher synaptic receptors of the Tyranid hive mind. Battles are frequently reinforced and expanded by the direct dropping of reinforcements in mycetic spores from the hive ships in orbit.
The ground swarms are continuously reinforced with increasingly powerful contingents of Tyranid Warriors, bio-artillery and specialised organisms like the Carnifex assault-beasts and Hive Tyrants. As resistance lines stabilise they are infiltrated or smashed with coordinated wave attacks and mycetic spore drops. Centres of resistance are surrounded, besieged by the gathering of increasingly large and powerful swarms until they are overrun.
A "more pure" tooth-n-claw army would be a Phase III: Attack army, where the Tyranids haven't had time to develop counters to local resistances; I think it will be a cool armylist to design once the first Tyranid list is complete.
Phase IV is where all the "cool" and "elite" bio-creatures come out. ?The army does allow the flexibility of fielding hordes of Gaunt-genus creatures (and quite effectively, I might add!) that can swamp a Titan! ?As well as Carnifex swarms or bio-artillery units. ?
My opponents are still somewhat disheartened by seeming large clusters of little Bugs infesting all the scenery... and when they spawn back, they're even more dismayed! ?
It feels and looks like a horde to me!
The changed % required/allowed from the v3.0 lists to the current incarnations has changed the brood distribution equation as well, and for the better I believe.
_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer
Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
tneva82
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:30 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 12:17 pm
Posts: 606
|
| Quote (Hena @ 18 Nov. 2005 (13:28)) | | I've gotten six or so (can't remember exact number, tneva?) fighta bommaz under it. |
About there yes. Silly me for forgetting that darn flame template AA
Though not that 15cm tank busta range gives much of options. You either dive in or look for less protected targets._________________ www.tneva.net
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
MaksimSmelchak
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:46 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
 |
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm
Posts: 7258
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
|
|
Hi Guys,
The original list I received from Jervis when I took over as Champion was a horde list albeit one that didn't have a lot of direction.
I've slowly been trying to structure the newer 'Nid lists into an army very different from an Ork "horde" list.
I also wanted to make up or develop some new units, which I've done.
While, I wanted the 'Nid list to be good at CC, it does have a little shotting power that can be a hurtful sting.
Expectorators are a new hive experiment, build a Bio-titan that can harass the large mechanical constructs of other races. Build it cheap so that you can outnumber enemy Titans with ratios of 2 to 4 Expectorators.
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
Legion 4
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:56 pm |
|
| Brood Brother |
|
|
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm
Posts: 36947
Location: Ohio - USA
|
May be it's just me ... but "Bugz is Bugz" ! They come off as being a horde ... and I guess IMO ... they should ! Still have to check the updated rules ...
_________________
Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
|
|
| Top |
|
|
|
nealhunt
|
Post subject: [Lists] Are we a hoard army? Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 4:59 pm |
|
| Purestrain |
 |
Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
|
|
I agree the list as-is can be fielded in a very elite-only way. My normal Nid opponent generally has 2-4 WEs on the board, not counting Expectorators, and the independent allotment is always near max.
Broods are always near the minimum and are simply recycled via Mycetic Spores. That's fine and in character, but there are never very many on the board at one time, so it never feels like an actual horde. It's much more like a few elites surrounded by a very tough meat shield.
The real question is balancing the army feel with giving players some real strategic options. IMHO, right now the options are great but the feel is off.
I hesitate to simply up the required brood %, but that is an option. I would prefer to look for a way to make hordes more attractive instead.
_________________
Neal
|
|
| Top |
|
|
).
), so what do you all think? Have we become too elite (though the list is great).