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RULES: Raveners and a second look?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5059
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Author:  2.0 [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:59 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

I've been pondering Raveners and they just seem a bit backwards from thier 40k counterparts.  I'm thinking of a few points that could be changed, not sure how or if it would change thier points cost, but theres a few things that just don't seem to fit with them.

4+ Armour...  They only have a 5+ save in 40k, should this be changed to a 5 or 6+?

Only Scything Talons... They have Scything and Rending, should they get at least a +1 Extra attack?

Deathspitter... This is one that could be changed across the board for those that have deathspitters.  They are a pretty decent assault weapon and one that I think got toned down a bit in Epic being only a Small Arms weapon.  Couldn't it be more of a 20cm (24" range in 40k), AP5+ or AP6+?

Just a few thoughts I had, thanks and good gaming!

Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:06 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Well there are like three to five of therm per stand each one needing two hits (in 40k) to kill.  Thus they will take a lot to die.  Thus 4+ save.  As for extra weapons, they are already a tad expensive for my liking you can get three termagaunts for one ravener.  Also Raveners can also take devourers, which are small arms.  So maybe the name should be changed to weapon symbiote.  Thre again 5 devourers should give +1 FF....

Author:  2.0 [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:22 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

3 to 5 per stand?  what do you make your raveners out of?  I'm lucky to get two to a stand  :)  Just seems silly that Raveners have the same save as a Hive Tyrant stand (which is supposed to include the Tyrant Guard in the stats as well)...  

And maybe it is just changing the weapon name, the deathspitter is just too good to only be small arms.

So if the save was taken down a notch and an extra attack was given for the rending/scything, the points might balance out...

Author:  ragnarok [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:49 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Well it looks like I can get that many on the stand.  When I can finally get 'nids at a decent price I want to try to get 7 gaunts per stand.  A real swarm effect

Author:  2.0 [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

I'm still working on getting 5 troops to a stand... lol.  Swarm boxes are always at the top of my gifts list  :P

Author:  Markconz [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:24 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

In my view the Hive Tyrant needs to have reinforced armour, I've talked aobut that in other threads. Also the Tyrant is immune to small arms unlike the ravener, so the ravener is not really the same toughness even now.

Also save represents toughness and wounds as well as armour, and to a certain extent probably also movement abilities in 40k. I guess it depends how many are on a stand in epic. Currently i think most people are using single raveners (I do) though 3 like warriors would be best probably.
Personally I think raveners need bit of a change to bring them in line with the new codex. In close combat they should be just as deadly as warriors in terms of dishing out the damage.

Author:  ferrumvir [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:51 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

There's another URL=http://www.epic40k.co.uk/epicomms/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=21;t=4902]thread[/URL] where I mention changing the ravenors stats, but rather than change the stats. I suggested changing the number of models per units.

At the moment Ravenors (5 to a base) equate to 10 wounds and 15-20 attacks which should make them more powerful in CC than GS. 3 Ravenors per units (model any number you like) and the pressent stat line makes more sense.

Most units represent 4-6 wounds

CF 4, TW 6, HG 5, TG 5, etc. and through most army lists.

I'm a little baffled that ZO=1 and RV=10!

Cheers Scott

Author:  Jaldon [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 12:54 am ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

A unit points cost is based as much on the units stats as it is on the units usefulness to the army or the formation it is part of.

Also.....

Straight line crossing of stats from WH40k to Epic-A can, and does, lead to problems. Sometimes it is more important that the proper Army Wide Feel be created over a direct crossing of said stats form WH40k to Epic-A.

For example, not all Space Marine Devastators in WH40k are armed with Missile Launchers, but they are in Epic-A, why? Because it creates a simplier, easier to use, cleaner game then trying to allow for all the possible options they do have in WH40k. Also, it really isn't that important that the individual stats be that detailed, this is a BIG PICTURE game compared to WH40k and in that case the overall effect of a weapon system is often more important then the individual effects it might, or might not, have on a unit by unit bases.

Deathspitters, Bolters, Lasguns, Shuriken Catapults, are all treated as small arms in Epic-A no matter what their WH40k stats are. They can cause a change in FF to hit, or number of FF attacks, but not become a ranged weapon.

Raveners, at various times, have been tried with +1 attacks, while it seems real correct the overall effect has always been bad, either upping the cost so much they become near useless, or making them so powerful for the cost as to be a no brainer (Thus leaving the Gaunts at home).

The desire is to create the feel of a wall of nasty little bugs that won't go away no matter how many you cut down, that are backed up by bigger meaner bugs that can be gotten rid of if you could just catch your breath long enough to accomplish it. Hence you want cheap Gaunts/Ravaners/Gargoyles so this effect is created. The need to do this in Epic-A will sometimes supercede the need to stay in line with WH40k.

Well that's my two cents anyways.....

Jaldon :p

Author:  Legion 4 [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:07 am ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Again ... Jaldon is on target ... WH40K and Epic, regardless of the fluff ... are not created equal !  :blues:

Author:  Markconz [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:48 am ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Well if we leave the Raveners at one (or 1-3) to a stand (as many people seem to be using them now) then their current stats reflect comparitive 40k ability reasonably well, ie not confusing to 40k players watching or playing epic.  In addition single raveners are common in 40k... they are one of the few smaller nids which can be taken in units of one, along with lictors, thropes, and biovores.

Author:  ferrumvir [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:09 am ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Hi,

I'm more than happy with the stat line, and Jalgon is correct, the points cost should reflect the usefulness in the game.

As I've said in more than one place if ZO and RV are changed to be representing 3ish models a units/base then they are IMO just about bob on! At one/five per unit they either out perform/under perform the 40k equivalent by a significant margin.

On the devastator point made by Jalogn. Early in the concept of EA (pre-realease) there was talk of having (for non-tournament games) a list of stats for Devatstors/Tactical squads etc. with different weapons options, Heavy Bolters/las cannons and the like with which you would be able to taylor/"add character" to your units should you wish. I wonder what happened to that sort of non-competetive stat changes?

Cheers Scott

Author:  nealhunt [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:43 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Straight line crossing of stats from WH40k to Epic-A can, and does, lead to problems. Sometimes it is more important that the proper Army Wide Feel be created over a direct crossing of said stats form WH40k to Epic-A.


I think I've heard this song before... :D

I posted almost the exact same thing yesterday in the "infantry point cost" thread.  I suppose it's just true that great minds think alike.
:cool:
Author:  Jaldon [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:08 pm ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Quote ferrumvir
Early in the concept of EA (pre-realease) there was talk of having (for non-tournament games) a list of stats for Devatstors/Tactical squads etc. with different weapons options, Heavy Bolters/las cannons and the like with which you would be able to taylor/"add character" to your units should you wish.
End Quote

You still can, the stats for all the weapons are there, and the FAQs in the rule book even tell you can do this for non-GT battles if you and your opponent if you want to. We have used it for some of our battles for fun, it can be interesting to say the least.

Quote Neal
I posted almost the exact same thing yesterday in the "infantry point cost" thread.  I suppose it's just true that great minds think alike.
End Quote

Scarey Isn't It :wow:  :80:  :(8:  :laugh:

Jaldon :p

Author:  Legion 4 [ Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:12 am ]
Post subject:  RULES: Raveners and a second look?

Does Neal have a Voodoo Doll of you too, Jaldon ?! :;): ?I really do have one my friend's girl gave me ... could explain a lot of my recent problems ! :laugh: ?But back OT ... 40k continues to screw up Epic ! :o0  :oops:  :devil:




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