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LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5045		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  ferrumvir [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:45 am ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
8 games in and by far (and I mean FAR) the best units in the army are the biovors and Dacti-exocrine.

I also seem to be losing the vast majority of combats... Depressingly so. If I initiate combat then I have some chance of success, which is generally based on my skilled as a general.

However, no matter what I do (can anyone help?) I can't recieve a charge. By turn two/three my opponent has worked out that he can just roll in and FF the Nyds, I don't even get to roll dice as I put my army back in the box.

What makes this more galling is that the opposition virtually always have a larger charge range than the Nyds. Every other army has 15cm FF, giving charge ranges from 30cm (min) to 50cm. (I'll not mention the achilies heal of the nyds - eldar skimmers that don't hang around close enough for you even to charge them with a different formation). The Nyds (supposedly the fastest and best CC army the galaxy has every encounter) are 15-40cm.

The overall problem I have is that once the opposition have worked it out. The Engage but FF. the Nyd force's effectivness vanishes.

In 8 games I am yet to get a Hive Tyrand, or Carnifex into base to base. In order to get a HT in base to base I believe you need to have at least three on the board. All three must move to within 15cm of a different enemy formations which have activated. Other wise your opponent will either move away (yes even a great gargant backs out of this) or if they think their hot enough something else engages triggering a FF from the unit you were about to assault.

It's the feel of the army that I feel is incorrect.

To win games, you play them defensively. Make sure you keep the enemy out of your table half, and then try and muscle over into their half just enough to deny them 2 goals (hold the line and they shall not pass), which you hopefully achieve therebye winning 2-0.

This is not how I imagined the Tryanid army. I wanted an army that could win thorough out and out CC, let the enemy get blitzkrieg, if they have any formations left, while you win with Break their Spirit, blitzkrieg, and take and hold. You know a bit in-your-face assault.

Am I the only one having problems with this, am I doing something wrong? (probably) But what is the correct way.

Bit of a rant there, sorry!

My force at the moment is very infanty heavy. I know I'm suffering form a lack of supreme commander, but I've A. not painted her yet, and B. wanted an tidle wave of gribblies.

Does having a number of large creatures (WE) help?
Should having a number of large creates help? i.e. the gribbly army should function to some degree.

Any help would be appreciated.

Cheers Scott

PS I've some ideas about remidies but I'd rather know if I'm doing wrong before before I make my self look stupid.
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:37 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Quote (ferrumvir @ 14 Oct. 2005 (09:45))
My force at the moment is very infanty heavy. I know I'm suffering form a lack of supreme commander, but I've A. not painted her yet, and B. wanted an tidle wave of gribblies.

Not painting something has never stopped me from using it in a game. Sure, it looks better to have everything painted, but minis play the same unpainted!  :p
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 3:57 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
The Nid artillery is grossly overpowered.  It's better than IG (supposedly arty specialists) by far.

The overall problem I have is that once the opposition have worked it out. The Engage but FF. the Nyd force's effectivness vanishes.


I don't understand this.  They win the FF.  You lose a few stands.  You're not broken.  You haven't lost your Synapse Creature.  You only have to retreat outside 15cm and can still activate.  Keep pressing the attack.

You should start out about even on activations and Nids almost never lose activations, so every broken formation of the enemy gives you a tactical edge.  As you noted in regards to getting Hive Tyrants in base contact, the trick is to create a "local" activation advantage where the enemy simply can't react completely before you hit them.  This should be easier later in the game as your total activation advantage goes up.

A few mycetic spores also means that any Synapse can instantly regenerate a substantial swarm.

It's the feel of the army that I feel is incorrect.

This I agree with completely, but for different reasons.  Rather than a ravening horde, I think the Nid army feels like a handful of elite units.
Author:  Legion 4 [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:00 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Only if you use it like a C/Cbt army ... Albeit they have a lot of C/Cbt units and that's their "flavor", I believe you/we can work with that ...
Author:  ferrumvir [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 14 Oct. 2005 (15:37))
but minis play the same unpainted! ?:p

Rubish, they always die first, it's like wearing red in a Star Trek episode! :p
Author:  Dwarf Supreme [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:44 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Quote (ferrumvir @ 14 Oct. 2005 (16:31))
Quote (Dwarf Supreme @ 14 Oct. 2005 (15:37))
but minis play the same unpainted! ?:p

Rubish, they always die first, it's like wearing red in a Star Trek episode! :p

In that case, let me rephrase myself. MY minis play the same unpainted. ?:p Point well taken, though!
Author:  ferrumvir [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 4:50 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Okay I'm learning... Keep it comming...

I realised that the Synapse creates were fearless and therefore unlikely to be destroyed in CC. Though when I've lost combat I've generally run and hid, because I was fearful of losing the activation/synapse in following action. So this maybe a thing to try.

Hena how large are your formations?

Mine are usually 12-18 strong with a mixture of termagaunts,hormagaunts,gargoyles and a couple of Carfiex as body guard for the TH. Is this too small?

I'm begining to suspect so as you seem to think that it's worth assaulting after losing combat (I've generally only the Syanapse left) I find I lose all 12-18 stands in a turn, something will drive up and fire (kill a few, the Nyds don't fall back), something else comes in and engages and the first lot FF. combat resolution is usually 6-8 against all through casulaties! Having lost 8 stands in combat and that sort of resolution the recyle box fills rapidly. So bigger swarms seem to be the way to go.

Legion 4: I'm sure it can be... That's why I'm here.

Nealhunt/hena: I agree that Nyds ordnance is too powerful. Though until I can operate the rest of the army I'm not prepared to down play them... Hena, you're too sporting!

Cheers Scott
Author:  nealhunt [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 5:31 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
I find I lose all 12-18 stands in a turn, something will drive up and fire (kill a few, the Nyds don't fall back), something else comes in and engages and the first lot FF. combat resolution is usually 6-8 against all through casulaties! Having lost 8 stands in combat and that sort of resolution the recyle box fills rapidly.


???  I'm at a loss.  It should take FF specialist formations with support to kill that many in an assault.  Even then, it shouldn't be all that easy to pull off without jeopardizing at least the support formation.

In any case, I'd say keep 2 swarms close to each other so if the enemy assaults one, you get your revenge.  A good option for that would be a ground swarm in front, followed by a Harridan or Vituperator behind to overrun whatever assaults.  A Vituperator loaded with Raveners is expensive, but fast and vicious.

In general:

Throw a few Raveners into your swarms.  The armor save will cut your kills down dramatically.  Imagine those FF assaults if the first round of fire from the tanks and the first couple hits in the assault are all on units with armor saves.  Looks a lot better, doesn't it?

When you get to countercharge, move all your units with saves (except the Synapse) as far forward as possible.  Fewer kills means better resolution.  If you lose, each successful save will prevent 2 kills - 1 from the save itself and 1 in the resolution.

Also, if you are facing barrages, you can bunch the Raveners up as you cross the board so the first template has to hit them (with their armor saves).


You indicated that you like building horde armies.  Horde armies are about claiming territory and restricting the enemy through sheer weight of numbers.

You might try building swarms that can garrison.  If your opponent is outmaneuvering you and forcing FF, garrison immediately cuts their room to operate almost in half.  A line of garrisons in front with a couple fast swarms (harridan/vituperator) in back to plug holes and can rapidly pin an enemy force, especially if you throw in several formations of Lictors to port in.

If you are playing the GT scenario, place your objectives as close to your side as possible.  This will force your opponent to place objectives that deeper in your territory.  This increases the need for movement (which you will restrict) and forces the enemy to come to you.
Author:  ferrumvir [ Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:02 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Hi Neal,

I've only played with the minatures to hand, so I hadn't even looked at the Raveners stats. Yes a save would make a big difference.

I'm amazed a 4+ save that's, well, amazing! And yes that would make a huge difference to the outcome.

I also like the ideas about moving counter charging with the raveners to use thier saves. combat resolution down the 3/4 at a stroke - half the swarm left... I had not considered that as I had nothing with saves.

I'd not thought of the garrison idea either. Almost half of my opponents have chosen to play acoss quaters rather than straight across and I've struggled getting near them. This should help  a lot. I've also just thought that they could spanw the other units but this willdelay the engagement by a turn.

Also I'd not of bunching units with saves together to force the positioning of barrage template, useful tactic with any mixed save formation, I supose orks are the other race that could benefit from this tactic.

Thanks for you help.

Cheers Scott
Author:  Legion 4 [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:15 am ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Well you are in the right place, "F" ... we'll all learn together ! :;):
Author:  primarch [ Sat Oct 15, 2005 4:14 pm ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Hi!

Welcome to the boards ferrumvir!

Primarch
Author:  ferrumvir [ Sun Oct 16, 2005 11:15 am ]
Post subject:  LISTS: Are Tyranids a CC army?
Hi Primarch, everyone's so friendly here! :)

Hena, just read your last post, think you sent it while I was typing my last!

Seems my swarms are about a half to a third the size they should be. I'll drop a few synapse and get an even bigger horde :D and see how I get on.

Can wait for my next game now...

Cheers Scott
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