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Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6
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Author:  atension [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

Sky slashers addition - I understand the hole you are looking to fill as traditional stats have gargoyles as more FF oriented in assaults. Though sky skashers are technically swarms in 40k. Wouldn't they be too small to be represented in Epic. Also no idea how you'd model them. Maybe make the hive crone and/or harpy a little more cost effective and have them fill the CC gap?

Idea to change change - ditch the sky slashers and use the harpy/crones as your flying CC work horses. This would also make flyrants less unfavourable in the flying swarms so they arent as easily sniped with AT fire. Drop a bit of shooting from them to make them a little more cost effective. Add unit size ~4 sporoswarm (representing a combination of sporocysts and mucoloid spores) as a teleport or even just planetfall with added capacity on the hive ship. Have the following stats: immobile or 10cm, Ar +4, CC +4, FF+4, 30cm AA 5+, 30cm AP4/AT5 (venom cannon) fits with fluff, more practical to model, and Nids traditionally have poor AA. The crone I think with 35cm move and being able to bury them in a swarm makes for quite effective AA.

Also pyrovors I can't see being taken that often. They add some better assault numbers to the artillery swarm but would only act as a minor deterant to being assaulted.

Copy paste error - Under the vanguard organism special rule. You have "vanguard organismvanguard organism"

Like the change on the lictor swarm plan on using at least one large swarm of lictors.

Author:  Mrdiealot [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

I think your updated "Borka Rule" (to ignore one hack-down per synapse) might work. I felt the previous one was a bit too good in combination with the Swarming rule.

Author:  mordoten [ Thu Jul 12, 2018 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

I agree on sky slasher swarms. They seem to small to be represented on the epic scale.

Author:  Borka [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

mordoten wrote:
I agree on sky slasher swarms. They seem to small to be represented on the epic scale.
atension wrote:
Sky slashers addition - I understand the hole you are looking to fill as traditional stats have gargoyles as more FF oriented in assaults. Though sky skashers are technically swarms in 40k. Wouldn't they be too small to be represented in Epic. Also no idea how you'd model them. Maybe make the hive crone and/or harpy a little more cost effective and have them fill the CC gap?

Yeah I thought about that. They seemed bigger than most swarm creatures in 40k (and therefore reasonable in epic), when I compared them to rippers for instance. But now that I rechecked on FWs site then they kind of do look similar in size it just the wings that make them look a lot bigger. I guess I'll take them away in the next iteration. Iäm not at all married to the idea of including them. It was just an afterthought really.

atension wrote:
Idea to change change - ditch the sky slashers and use the harpy/crones as your flying CC work horses. This would also make flyrants less unfavourable in the flying swarms so they arent as easily sniped with AT fire. Drop a bit of shooting from them to make them a little more cost effective. Add unit size ~4 sporoswarm (representing a combination of sporocysts and mucoloid spores) as a teleport or even just planetfall with added capacity on the hive ship. Have the following stats: immobile or 10cm, Ar +4, CC +4, FF+4, 30cm AA 5+, 30cm AP4/AT5 (venom cannon) fits with fluff, more practical to model, and Nids traditionally have poor AA. The crone I think with 35cm move and being able to bury them in a swarm makes for quite effective AA.


I wanted the list to have more shooting options compared to onachus so I'm hesitant to lower the shooting power of the flying AVs

atension wrote:
Also pyrovors I can't see being taken that often. They add some better assault numbers to the artillery swarm but would only act as a minor deterant to being assaulted.

True that. Can you see an alternative statline for them? Not worth including? Or perhaps just ok to have them as a seeminlgy subpar choice?

atension wrote:
Like the change on the lictor swarm plan on using at least one large swarm of lictors.

Good to hear. I too think they really needed a boost. I went with the points cost proposed by Dave and tested by the NDC, that have now also been incorporated into the onachus list.

Author:  atension [ Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

Quote:
 wanted the list to have more shooting options compared to onachus so I'm hesitant to lower the shooting power of the flying AVs 


I think you can accomplish both. Slightly less shooting on each model but have more of them. Remove the AA in favour of the spore AA unit. This would fill your assault CC gap in terror swarms. Increase number of AVs to protect/reduce AT sniping of Flyrants in terror swarm and would make your the crone/harpy swarms not so breakable. Being independant swarms without synapse they will rarely rally once broken. Very unfavourable use of points compared to the terror swarm.

Author:  Hulksmash [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

I'm on board with this list. It's what I wanted from a modern nid army. My thoughts;

-I'd say change the name of the Tyranid Guard to Hive Guard (their actual 40k name). I'd also consider being able to add them to the brute swarm.
-Agree on removal of the skyslashers
-I miss the scaling swarms. Even if it was a single scale up. I liked how it allowed you to make more interesting swarms with war engines.
-What is the reason for +20pts for gargs in the terror swarm but +15 in the normal swarm (assuming it's because they can actually use their speed in this detachment). Any thought to going down to 200 but dropping the minimum gargoyle units to 4 so you could make this either an infantry flying swarm or a AV/WE swarm?
-Absolutely love the way the Hierophant is handled
-Lictor & Biovore detachments are great. Higher lictor count is awesome and adding a zoanthrope to the biovores is well done.

Once my newest AoS army is done I'm going to dig back into Nids and this is exactly what I was looking for :)

Author:  Borka [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

Hulksmash wrote:
I'm on board with this list. It's what I wanted from a modern nid army. My thoughts;

-I'd say change the name of the Tyranid Guard to Hive Guard (their actual 40k name). I'd also consider being able to add them to the brute swarm.

My intention is for a unit that could be used to represent both hive guard and tyrant guard. I didn't think they booth merited their own representation in epic scale. That's why I thought to name them, perhaps a bit dull, by the rather generic tyranid guard.

Hulksmash wrote:
-Agree on removal of the skyslashers

Will do so as that seems to be reasonable and what everyone has commented so far.

Hulksmash wrote:
-I miss the scaling swarms. Even if it was a single scale up. I liked how it allowed you to make more interesting swarms with war engines.

Will ponder on that. I found I hardly ever used the bigger swarms and therefore wanted to make the list structure a bit simpler.
Hulksmash wrote:
-What is the reason for +20pts for gargs in the terror swarm but +15 in the normal swarm (assuming it's because they can actually use their speed in this detachment). Any thought to going down to 200 but dropping the minimum gargoyle units to 4 so you could make this either an infantry flying swarm or a AV/WE swarm?

The 20 points is a cautious thing. We haven't had such a fast tyranid formation before. It's hard to know what that might be worth and how it could change tactics. I therefore thought being cautious and keep a higher price was the best way to start. My need to lower that to 15 later on or possibly raise the cost.

Please elaborate. How would you structure the formation so that it would be a possible with AV/WE swarm. Do you mean that 4 gargoyles could be swaped for AVs?
My thinking is that a flying AV/WE unit fit better in the independent section.
Hulksmash wrote:
-Absolutely love the way the Hierophant is handled
Glad to hear it! I think the optionality is a better representation for the "ever evolving" fluf, to much option doesn't really fit epic though. I hope it's about the right amount, but let me know of any more ideas.
Hulksmash wrote:
-Lictor & Biovore detachments are great. Higher lictor count is awesome and adding a zoanthrope to the biovores is well done.
Image


Hulksmash wrote:
Once my newest AoS army is done I'm going to dig back into Nids and this is exactly what I was looking for :)
Looking forward to seeing your results :)

Author:  Hulksmash [ Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

With the scaling swarms I wasn't thinking the largest size but maybe the base size and a single step up for the double size. I've never seen or used that largest size but I think you could make some decent swarms at the double size. And the Terror swarm would benefit from the double size option as well as the brute swarm if someone wanted to double heirodules.

For the structure on the Terror swarm it was more dropping it to 4 gargoyles so that you could then transport the 4 gargs inside a Harridan if you choose and then fill out the rest of the detachment with a Tyrant & Crones/Harpies. Alternatively it could be built with warriors and all gargoyles or a mixture of the two. With it being a restricted swarm (1 per tyranid swarm) I don't think it's a huge deal.

Author:  atension [ Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

Just hoping to clarify the part at the beginning that says:

"This is represented by the following rules for synapse swarms, not independent swarms (ie swarms that start the game without synapse units) or war engine, formations: "

So are independant swarms/Warengines regular initiative 1+ formations and dont need follow any of the synapse hive mind rules?

Author:  Borka [ Sun Dec 30, 2018 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

atension wrote:
Just hoping to clarify the part at the beginning that says:

"This is represented by the following rules for synapse swarms, not independent swarms (ie swarms that start the game without synapse units) or war engine, formations: "

So are independant swarms/Warengines regular initiative 1+ formations and dont need follow any of the synapse hive mind rules?

Sorry I somehow missed to answer this question. They're suppost to act like independent swarms in onachus. So I think the anser is yes.

I have played one game so far with the list, wanted to make a report but forgot to take notes and it's been a while and I can't figure the action out from the pictures. The flying AV's preformed very well, they have a lot of disrupt attacks. Maybe to much disrupt so they're a concern, but it was just one game and to early to change I think.

I lost the game 1 to 2 objectives.

Author:  Jianaran [ Wed Jul 24, 2019 4:39 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

It's been six months since the last post in this thread. Is this list still under development, and has any progress been made? I've been getting back into the hobby over the past few months and am considering picking up a Tyranid force, and (as others have stated) the Gorgon list looks far closer to what I'd like to play than the NetEA or EpicUK lists.

Author:  Borka [ Tue Jul 30, 2019 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

I have no intention of retiring the list, but we had a small kid and some other life stuff have kept me from playing epic or any other wargame this year. Interest from others seem kind of low haven’t had any one else test the list.
Though I have now started almost one year of parents leave and hope to have some more time in the fall.

Feel free to help out. Any feedback is of interest and especially play tests.
Cheers

Author:  Borka [ Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Hive Fleet Gorgon netEA 0.6

Hello everyone! Time for an update!

Have not been able to play regular games outside tournaments the last 1,5 year, but was able to get a game in 10 days ago with this list. Was hoping to play some more in the spring, but we'll have to see how things develop with corona and all the measures already and yet to be taken.

I have thought about the list every now and then and have some ideas to continue to develop it. In the game I had I tested a big overhaul of the Hive Mind special rule. I'm not a big fan of the swarming rule and would like to see a list without that. My view on spawning has changed over the years of playing onachus. I used to realy like it, but have since started to not like it. It adds unnecessary complexity to the end phase for very little thematic gain.

I realize that it's probably not possible to do that under the netEA process. Interest to playtest the netEA version has seemed low anyway so I'd rather do something I'm myself more keen on. I will therefore add one updated list to the first post, still with the netEA/onachus rules, but I have also added another one to this specific post to show an alternative list that I'd like to have your feedback on.

I tried this version in the battle. A battle report can be found here

What I have done is basically removing spawning.
I did keep most of the synapse rule and the synapse point system in the list. For each point of synapse remaining one brood creature is ignored for purposes of combat resolution. In effect the grot rule. Kind of a light version of the epic uk/france brood creature rules which seem a bit to much to me. I tried it earlier for the onachus list but felt it was to powerful with swarming in mind.
I thought it worked well in this game and was appropriate in a list without spawning and not over the top. It's a more measured boost to the lesser creatures in comparsion to the epic-UK version. Especially hormagaunts should be boosted by this since they become less of a liability to send into CC.
I upped the number of brood creatures in the swarms to compensate and also lowered the price of extra units. I think the cost for synapse creatures can be lowered without spawning so changed warriors to 35 pts. Perhaps to cheap?
I playtested a broodmother rule to tervigons and the dominatrix as a little nod to swarming, but mainly because the tervigon is so cool and I want it represented. It felt appropriate for the dominatrix as well being the big mama of the list. It's smaller in scope than swarming and easier to handle as there's likely only one or a few of these units in any list and more straight forward than onachus.

I have made a few tweaks here and there. Changes since last version have been marked with blue. Some suggestions that could be playtested are marked in red, but not to be considered decided changes.

  • skyslahsers are gone per previous discussion
  • I made som small boosts to both versions of carnifexes. I played them with the old stats in the game above. I feel like this for the tyranids really iconic unit is sometimes a bit lack-luster with both onachus and uk stats. I have also added a suggestion in red that could be tried based on a 40k special rule, maybe it's a bit to much though. I know unit specific rules are frowned upon, but it could be tried if you still find them to be lacking. certainly not married to it.
  • Some price changes here and there. I wanted to give a bit of a discount to larger swarms without reintroducing the different swarm sizes. Therefore there's a discount to + 3 units for the brute and sky swarms. A maxed brute swarm comes in a 375 pts, which is +25 pts compared to for instance the wraithlord formation. I believe it's about right.
  • I think the new synpase is less strong than swarming so the points for synapse creatures have gone down a bit, except for the the tervigon and dominatrix which got the new broodmother.
  • The hive tyrant got an overhaul with a weapon change more fitting the newer iterations. Also several tyranid units like the Hive Tyrant and the Tervigon have become capable psykers in 40k lore and rules. I wanted that represented and added a 15cm attack to them
  • The harpys had a little to much fire output I felt in the game I played, so I have taken your point into consideration Atension. I changed the cannons from 2x to twin linked instead. Lowered the formation cost slightly with that in mind


thanks for your time. I hope you enjoy the report.

With the game I'm at one win and two losses with the list.

Edit: spotted a mistake. The lowered cost for the sky swarm wasn't included. Uploaded a new file called 0.7.1

Attachments:
Hive Fleet Gorgon 0.7.1 synapse.pdf [205.22 KiB]
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