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[OLD] Tyranid Army List v10

 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:19 pm 
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Dave, how would you feel about some test games being played with a Synapse symbiont for Biovore, Exocrine, Dactylis, Harridan and Trygon swarms?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:25 pm 
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Or requiring a synapse node or a synapse creature.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:28 pm 
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Dave wrote:
The 9.2.1 method put a lot of responsibility on the player to design a legal list, rather than just having the list enforce itself.

You had to choose Synapse Clusters and make sure you didn't go over 1/3 of your total. If you wanted uncommon's you could only buy one for every two common clusters. You also had to make sure that you didn't go over the 1/3 limit for independents.

All that involved a lot of number checking by the player just to enforce limited numbers of synapse, lots of brood creature and slightly less uncommon brood creatures. I went with the Ork system like the EpicUK and EpicFr lists to simplify. The only thing you have to check now is the 1/3 limit for big WEs (like most of the core lists do). Limited Synapse is enforced by the formations' core units and limited independents by the 1:1 ratio. I left uncommons unrestricted for the time being, but if that proves too good we can limit them as well.


I'm impressed, I think you've gone down the right path with the army composing system. I endorse the ork S/M/L "buying" compaired to the 9.2.1, it seemed to me a overly complicated way of building an army and, like you say, this is better for constructing leagal lists. And for instance sometimes you come to a game not very well prepared and have to do a list on the spot, on those occasions this way is way better


zombocom wrote:
Why go down that route when there are alternatives that avoid that kind of weirdness? It's very possible in your list to end up with identical looking formations with very different rules. That's not elegant.


I agree with Zombocom on this and think it should be avoided as much as possible. I think at least the dactylis should be dropped from the upgrades. I don't believe many people will take them anyway for the synapse formations since those will very seldom (if at all) use sustained fire orders. They are also priced differently between formations by 40 points, which I think is strange.

Do the exocrine really need to be an independent swarm?

Dave wrote:
Up until 5th edition Biovores were able to function outside of Synapse range (they had Ld 10 in 3e and Brood Telepathy like stealers in 4th) so there's definitely precedent for it. Even in 5th they'll pretty much just shoot at something if they're out of Synapse, that's all I can see them doing as Independent Swarms. I'd think that a similar behavior could be extrapolated to the bigger bio-arty bugs (Exocrine and Dactylis). Their Ld is also on par with Lictors/Stealers and the Bio-titans going by the Lords of Battle stats (the closest thing we have to official for 5e slug bugs).


Biovores could perhaps be independet only and not upgrades?

Just a few ideas...

Anyways I'm very much looking forward to playing against these guys and with them when the time (and money :) ) comes


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 4:22 am 
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Have not had much time but here are some observations so far.

** It should be noted that after you have had discussions on stats, you have effectively opened up debate again by keeping their costs out of discussions until this time **

I am not sure the Ork format is a winner, however these formations reallly shine under it:

Winners:

Harridan: At 400 points I will have DC9, 35cm move, 6 shots, 9 attacks at CC/FF5+ (not that great I know) and 3x MW hits in CC. Probably one of the best buys possible in Epic especially if you use them to grab or contest an objective late in the game

Trygon Swarm at 375 points. If used for Tunneling and 3rd turn appearance, they are probably better than the Harridans above.

Zoanthrope: THis may finally see an inclusion into one of my lists if I can get past that 15cm move :P


Here are some concerns:

Exocrines: Quite expensive IMO and unsure whether they would be taken for 60 points a pop in swarms

Meiotic Spores: Useless in Swarms as the Scout ability is effectively cancelled out by the 10cm move

Haruspex vs Malefactor: It would be rare that I would take a Haruspex over a Malefactor. Malefactor is supreme due to the +5cm move and transport. You could also relate this to the Carnifex although Fearless is a small bonus (yet not really enough to justify the same points).

In regards to the slug tanks, if you want to see them in Swarms (and not just Independants), they will need to be cheaper (not hard seeing you are going by 5 point increments). Otherwise if they will never be taken (as I believe they will not outside of the Independants), then there is no use in having them as an option in Synapse swarms. I feel the same about the Meiotic Spores

I feel further work could be done in bringing down some costs and maybe combine some unit costs - which will mean changing some unit stats. Hate to beat a dead horse (but I will) - please see what I did in Tarrasque with Gaunts. I priced them all the same, and then named their upgrade/unit as 'Gaunt' rather than terma/horma/garg. It will look neater.

I will try to make some lists up to test activation count next.

That is it for now as I have run out of time for lunch. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:15 am 
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Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Medium Tyranid Swarm with a Zoanthrope - 400 (BTS)
Harridan - 150

3000pts
16 Activations
8x DC3 War Engines with 35cm speed and MWCC attacks.
54x Termagants (Hormagaunts aren't as good).
18x Warrior Units (Tyrants aren't worth taking because they'll be AT sniped, and two Warrior bases are much better than having one snipable Tyrant unit).
No Supreme Commander needed because most of the army automatically rallies from being broken on a 1+.

My strategy with this army would be to march up into your teeth, and use Harridans to initiate Firefights with lots of firefight support from the termagants.

You could also do a similar list with 8x Genestealer formations instead of 8x Harridans, but it wouldn't be as good.



The core formations actually look pretty under-sized for their cost, but I guess part of that is in paying for the fact that every formation will rally from being broken on a 1+ (2+ if there are enemies nearby, whilst the enemies will be rallying on a 4+ or 5+ normally).

Overall I don't think this list should lose any games.

No wonder you downgraded all the unit stats, your special rules have ramped up the power of the list overall quite a bit by my eye.


IMO it's not worth taking any of the more expensive support formations because they don't have the auto-rally on a 1+ special rule.


I like the S/M/L construction style in concept, but the execution in this case leaves a lot to be desired IMO.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:42 am 
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I'd be tempted to follow E&C with perhaps a small change

Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Large Trygon - 550
+ 3x additional Warriors (150)

Less activations but a tunneling BTS with 9 WE (DC2) to appear in turn 3 inbetween the objectives. I would be less 'in your face' with my movements playing hide & seek for the first two turns & then a big rush in turn 3.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 9:49 am 
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Quote:
The core formations actually look pretty under-sized for their cost, but I guess part of that is in paying for the fact that every formation will rally from being broken on a 1+

Oh yeah, I forgot Swarming.

I'd regenerate an average of 16 Termagants per turn with my list, as I'm going to be pressing forwards.

Tim would probably regenerate more than that as he'd be hanging back for the first couple of turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 10:59 am 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
I'd be tempted to follow E&C with perhaps a small change

Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Harridan - 150
Tyranid Swarm - 200
Large Trygon - 550
+ 3x additional Warriors (150)

Less activations but a tunneling BTS with 9 WE (DC2) to appear in turn 3 inbetween the objectives. I would be less 'in your face' with my movements playing hide & seek for the first two turns & then a big rush in turn 3.


Want to fire up vassal at some point?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:03 am 
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Ulrik wrote:
I think my main dislike with the list is that so many critters operate independently from synapses. In my mind only Genestealers and Lictors do that, other creatures 'drop out' and become more like hazards than actual combat units if they lack synapse. Meiotic spore being another exception as they just drift along.



Funny :D
This is the same reason why i proposed a three tiered Iniative system!

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:04 am 
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Don't have time for vassal, sorry.
Maybe if Zombo gets his proxy game system working we could use that, it should be much quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:06 am 
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BlackLegion wrote:
Ulrik wrote:
I think my main dislike with the list is that so many critters operate independently from synapses. In my mind only Genestealers and Lictors do that, other creatures 'drop out' and become more like hazards than actual combat units if they lack synapse. Meiotic spore being another exception as they just drift along.



Funny :D
This is the same reason why i proposed a three tiered Iniative system!


I thought we had one :-/


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:07 am 
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Sorry, was quoting Tiny Tim, whom I have vassal'd in the past not yourself E&C.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:08 am 
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Mephiston wrote:
Want to fire up vassal at some point?

Sound like a plan


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 11:11 am 
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Mephiston wrote:
Sorry, was quoting Tiny Tim, whom I have vassal'd in the past not yourself E&C.

My mistake, not yours. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid Army List v10
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:50 pm 
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Tiny-Tim wrote:
I'd be tempted to follow E&C with perhaps a small change


Yeah, I too was thinking about various "Termagant Terror" style, high activation armies which both this list and the EpicUK list seem to allow and have been shown, in earlier versions, to be very nasty builds

And this brings up another question, both lists have an "A ... Swarm with no synapse units ... may not capture objectives" rule; does this also cover "contesting" objectives, as capturing and contesting are two different effects described in the rules for objectives:

You capture an objective if you have a unit within 15cms of it
in the end phase and your opponent does not. An objective is
contested if both sides have a unit within 15cms of it in the end
phase. Units from broken formations or from formations that
have rallied that end phase can not capture or contest
objectives.


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