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Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list

 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 7:46 pm 
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What we need is a Tyranid Champion to unify everything, and scrap 80% of the variant lists. There's no point everyone having their own personal list, really.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
Looking for a title...


Captain Obvious?

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:06 am 
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Evil and Chaos wrote:
What we need is a Tyranid Champion to unify everything, and scrap 80% of the variant lists. There's no point everyone having their own personal list, really.

QFT

The issue is everyone thinks their's is the list that shouldn't be scraped! lol! ::)


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:39 am 
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I'm still not entirely sure why there needs to be an old/new split anyway, or looking at it another way, what exactly the difference between an armoured tank sized tyranid slug with a bio cannon and a tyranid carnifex toting a massive venom canon would be in epic scale.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:47 am 
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MikeT wrote:
I'm still not entirely sure why there needs to be an old/new split anyway, or looking at it another way, what exactly the difference between an armoured tank sized tyranid slug with a bio cannon and a tyranid carnifex toting a massive venom canon would be in epic scale.

For me it's more that the older list misses a lot of the newer models entirely.

For example the Tervigon (Small dominatrix, a bit bigger than a Trygon), the Harpy (Small Harridan, about AV in size), the Scythed and Barbed Hierodules (Baneblade sized beasties).

There are no easy counts-as options for these creatures when using an "old stuff" list. Conversely, most of the bio-tank big slugs can be dropped from a "new stuff" list.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:11 pm 
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in that case then, wouldn't it be worth trying to unify at least the units that are shared (Gaunts and stuff) first? I know that there's no champion, but there is at least enough 'nid list developers to make some kind of quorum. You're all adults (Dave excepted ;)) and reasonable people (Dave?), so picking on Dave aside, I can't see why you can't get together and find some common ground. After that's done, then you can worry about sorting out the new and the old list specific stats.

As for the EpicUK list - it's worth keeping in mind during the process, but I'm not sure it would be worth including in the "homogenising of stats" process. Not because it's a bad list in anyway, but because it's balanced against other EpicUK lists, not NetEA ones.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:14 pm 
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Quote:
wouldn't it be worth trying to unify at least the units that are shared (Gaunts and stuff) first?

You're not going to get a workable consensus without a Champion.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:34 pm 
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Unifying stats is the job of a champion. During Jaldon's brief re-stint as AC he set Dave and I on the task, but we couldn't come to agreement on all units.

If I'm appointed champion unit stat consolidation will be my first job.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:42 pm 
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<shrugs> thought it might help to move things along, but if it needs someone with vested powah to make any sort of progress then that's a sad indictment of NetEA as a community.

Guess you'll all just have to keep developing separate lists then make the job of the new AC, whenever he gets appointed, so hard he won't want to do it any more, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:33 pm 
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I just can't see what the problem is. There just aren't enough units with sufficient differences in the raft of lists to cause a complete stop unless someone absolutely refuses to compromise. It can't be just quibbling over whether a unit has CC4+ or CC3+.

In the aborted attempt to unify under Jaldons re-stint as AC what units were causing problems? I'm guessing the Carnifex is one

Maybe the new slogan for the Tyranid AC should be "Herding cats anyone?"

The problem is anyone of us could put forward a unified stat list and the other list makers decide to ignore it and do their own thing anyway which is pretty much whats happened upto now. We need a unified stat list with the list makers agreement to use those stats. We don't necessariliy need a NetEA main Tyranid list if all the variants have agreed to use the same stats and rules.

If we sort this out I'll change my lists and I'll compromise on stats to get it done.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:53 pm 
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zombocom wrote:
...he set Dave and I on the task, but we couldn't come to agreement on all units.


What were the sticking points?

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 7:59 pm 
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Off the top of my head, Lictors, Biovores and Zoanthropes and their INF/LV status, Lictor CC and Warrior stats (super new guys vs old plain guys) were the main ones I think.

Chroma's promised an update this weekend, I'd at least hold off until then before we start any massive debate.

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 9:28 pm 
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While i agree on unified stats etc, i would like to point out something that people are stating is a negative. We have a hobby where people are making balanced lists and using them for thier games. This is exactly what the hobby is about.

Yes we need structure. I do not believe however that we need to poo poo all the attempts at lists as it shows a community that wants to express their creativity and enthusism to gain a fix. That is fantstic snd something many other 'hobbies' lack.

While i created tarrasque, i still enjoy the development of the other lists and learn a lot from other people's experiences. So is that the way forward? Do we have a hiatus and learn from each other or is now the time to gain consistency?

I am not fussed either way. While i support the nid development, i will still have my home games and break out tarrasque as that is the beauty of the hobby - we learn from each other and create our own worlds - something i fear is lost in the world of the mighty $$

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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:15 pm 
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I share the minority opinion that the Tyranid lists are getting too hung up on detail at 40k scale. A big stabby combat beast of tank size with one stat line is sufficient for a Tyranid player to use Carnifex's/Malefactors/etc. the same applies to various very slightly different unit types as evidenced in the Ork lists and them not nit-picking between Lifta-Droppas/Bubble-Chuckers/whatevers.

A Tyranid list sufficiently abstracted but maintaining the playstyle of a Tyranid horde can encompass 'old' and 'new' models alike.

On the 'old' - 'new' paradox- where's my Techmarine Artillery Gun, where's my Land Speeder Storm (or whatever the latest 40k release is)- surely a new list must be written everytime GW makes a new release...
A smarter option is to create a list with existing stuff abstracted so that new stuff can be used to counts as old- for example, I abhor the slug-Nids, but I've use bipedal equivalents in my model range (e.g. Gunfex in place of Exocrines) without the need for a Tyranid list specifically pandered to my model range.


The other, more subtle flaw often evident in Nid lists is that because in their background they are totally alien and different, they should conform to the rules of a wargame and how other armies interact completely differently and alien to the confusion and annoyance of players and opponents.

Unsurprisingly I support the Epic UK list.


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 Post subject: Re: Tyranid List Stat Comparision for a unified unit list
PostPosted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 7:42 am 
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Jeridian wrote:
On the 'old' - 'new' paradox- where's my Techmarine Artillery Gun, where's my Land Speeder Storm...

In the Imperial Fists and Raven Guard lists respectively.

Just like Baal Predators and Furioso Dreadnoughts can be found in the Blood Angels list, and Thunderhawk Transporters and Land Raider Crusaders can be found in the Black Templars list, and Devastators with Plasma Cannons can be found in the Dark Angels list, etc.

That being the reason that variant lists exist, to drop some unit types, and use some new units and new formation composition rules instead (and occasionally, new special rules too).

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