Comments from various members highlights the issues between old and new GW backgrounds and I think that now would be an ideal opportunity to rectify some of the issues as Jaldon works on the stats.

1) The background position of the Hierodule puts it around the Warhound level - Rename the Hierophant back to Hierodule.
2) The background position of the Hierophant puts it between the Warhound and Reaver - Rename the Hydraphant back to Hierophant.
3) Apocalypse lists the Haruspex, Malefactor and Exocrine as Heavy Assault wave creatures - Try to build the stats to get a continuous spread of creatures from Bio-Tank (Carnifex) to Super Heavy Bio-Tank incorporating (Haruspex, Malefactor, Dactylis, Exocrine, Carnifex, Trygon, Mawloc and Tyrannofex). The current 9.2.1 Hierodule could be the upper range of that (either non-canon or as a reimagined Haruspex/Exocrine)

1 @ 2 : the background is very clear as to what a hierodule and a hierophant is, and I don't think returning to names that got swapped over ten years ago is a good thing. In fact it'd be pretty confusing.
As far as GW is concerned the Hydraphant doesn't even exist.

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I'm not interested in any representation of the nids that doesn't match GWs current fluff.

The Hierodule is a roughly baneblade-scale war engine that comes in two types, barbed and scythed.



The Hierophant is a bio-titan.


The "Hydraphant" has no place in a list representing a modern-style hive fleet.

I'm of the opinion that we need to match the 40k stuff as much as possible (because that's where most Epic players start from). That being said, I also think that we should be free to add anything that can be made from an existing chassis or anything bigger than a warhound, especially if they are units that existed in an old official list. That's what forgeworld does - just look at the case of the warp hunter. Adding an exocrine would be no different than that.

If we limit ourselves to only what is mentioned in the 40k codices, we'll be limited to the scale of 40k. That means nothing that is extremely large, practically nothing that deals directly with aircraft or spacecraft, and little to no ultra-long range artillery. If we wait for forgeworld to make an even bigger beastie, or some creature with a range that isn't necessary in 40k, we'll be waiting a long time. It's pretty clear from the fluff that there are many Tyranid creatures out there that have not been identified, and I see nothing wrong with fitting the old unit types into the newer list.

I think we should take a pragmatic approach and add the 'missing' AV-sized creatures by making them specialized morphs of existing creatures. I'm guessing that the Tervigon and Tyrannofex from the latest codex will share a common body (if they ever get an official model). Based on that assumption, I'd suggest basing the AVs on either the Tervigon/Tyrannofex body (even though that is really a WE-equivalent body) or on the Carnifex (which has gotten a lot bigger since the SM/TL days).

I think as long as the main weapons from the old creatures are clearly represented, then no one will have a problem identifying them on the tabletop. If someone were to draw up a Carnifex with a big gun coming out of it's back, I'd have no problem calling that and exocrine. The same goes for calling a Carnifex with ridiculously oversized claws a malefactor (which is basically the same as a stone-crusher carnifex with wrecker claws).

Z:
forgeworld and GW have pillaged the biodiversity of the tyranid army, especially at higher levels. we know for a fact that nids have bio titans larger than a warhound. the fact that the name originally used to describe that titan has now been used for a smaller one does not matter.
putting it another way, tyranids need access to a bigger titan in order to have a diverse army that can compete in all scales of combat.
it is also worth mentioning that the fluff where they say "the biggest thing we've seen" is written from the perspective of some dudes, they also mention that they've only just seen reports of the heirodule elsewhere.
tyranids are supposedly evolvey, if they came up against a warlord titan, they'd spawn something bigger than the current heirophant. if Forgeworld felt like it, they'd build something bigger. given how they've 'treated' the previously existing canon, i see no reason why they would not further twist it to suit their production goals. lets not slave ourselves to what is possible in a game of apocalypse.

A:
as much as i'd prefer to use the old names, i have resigned myself to it being too confusing for the poor little fellows.
i would suggest that the hydraphant is a kinda crappy name, if we want a name for the biggestest titan tyranids can come up with, i'd propose Heirarch instead ^^;

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I think we are seeing things in a slightly different way.

I don't have a raft of FW models to compare sizes but my impression was that Apocalypse pegged the Hierodule in the same class (ie points and relative stats) as the Warhound and Revenant. Similarly the Hierophant is above the Warhound and Revenant but under the Reaver. By 40k the Hierodule should be closer to the epic Warhound (ie the 9.2.1 Hierophant) and the Hierophant should be under the Reaver (ie 9.2.1 Hydraphant)

In summary my view with the background right now is that the FW Hierodule is merely an alternate model for the old epic Hierodule while the FW Hierophant is a remake of the old epic Hierophant (and seems reasonable taking into account the poor scaling of the old epic tyranid model range).

No.
The Barbed Hierodule is a reimagined Malefactor.
The Scythed Hierodule is a reimagined Haruspex.
The Trygon remained a Trygon.
The Hierophant is a reimagined Hierodule.

So far there is no reimagined Hierophant (yet). That would be the Hydraphant (btw i like the name Hierarch more)

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That still leaves the exocrine and dactylis. I wouldn't weep too much if the goonie, catapult-armed dactylis went the way of the dodo, but the exocrine could easily fit into the latest 40k list as a larger variant of a pyrovore or biovore.

The sluggoform bodies may be out, but that doesn't mean we can't have some new-form equivalent.

Re imagined exocrine is called the Tyrannofex.

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Hierarch seems like a cool name for the biggest nid titan.

Wonder if it's practical to have unified stats for the old bugs and those "reimagined versions"? (So that e.g. Tyrannofex and Dactylis shares a statline)

I like the concept behind the Hydraphant as a non-supreme-commander version of the Dominatrix, to be the largest of the biotitans.

Admittedly, it doesn't have any background in the latest 40K stuff, but it's not in conflict with any of it. I don't see a problem with putting things in that are beyond the scope of 40K to fit in Epic. The Hydraphant (or Hierarch or whatever) doesn't seem any different than the Necron Abbatoir in that respect.

Outside that "scaled up for epic" stuff, though, I agree we should try to align with current 40K. The trick is doing that and keeping the older models relevant.

I agree, and generally I think the "trick" is found in creating two army lists, one of modern units, and one without modern units (But with the old bio-slug-tanks, and the "Hydraphant").

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But by taking that route, don't you risk the modern list being outclassed by the list that contains things tailor made for Epic?

I mean, if the inclusive list has larger WEs, longer-ranged artillery, and dedicated AA, while the modern list either lacks those things, or stretches to fit them into some codex creature's statline, then the inclusive list will still be a more satifying list. That's because the inclusive list can both accurately model the codex creatures stats and include additional creatures to fill in the gaps. Otherwise, you end up with situations like the one that gave the zoanthrope its AA attack, because you only have codex creatures available to cover all Epic bases.

Also, the more I think about it, the more I disagree with the assertion that the old AV-class beasts have morphed into the new, WE beasts. I mean, just because they have similar weapon loads doesn't mean they are a direct equivalent. By turning all the old beasts into WEs, you seriously reduce the number of those beasts that a player has available during a game. You also create a gap in the middle of the scale continuum. Most mature army lists have a lot of infantry types, slightly fewer LV/AV types, and even fewer WEs. Stripping out the old AV-beast from the Tyranid list leaves the list top heavy, or forces you to include multiple variants of the remaining AVs to make up the short fall.

Similarly, if you block the inclusion of even larger creatures, then the list will lack parity with the other armies. And you can't even justify that with the fluff, because there are clearly things in the background that are so large that they can't even fit in the scale of a 6mm game, much less a 28mm one.

Personally, I find playing games with the slug-tanks pretty unsatisfying, regardless of if their in-game stats are cool.


The modern unit list from 40k (GW & FW) is very broad, easily eclipsing the number of unit types available to an "old stuff only" army list.

The only area a "modern stuff" list would notably miss out is in not having a "Hydraphant", really.

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Lets assume a blank slate so no prior knowledge of old models or any epic rules.

Lets assume we have a number of source documents for reference for a modern fleet.
Those documents are the Apocalypse books and the Current Tyranid Codex.

Pertaining solely to the larger AV/WE from the Tyranid codex we get
1) Carnifex
2) Trygon/Mawloc
3) Tyrannofex
4) A Reaver Sized Trygon

From Apocalypse we get
1) Hierodule - Note that this is roughly Baneblade sized but closer in stats to a Warhound therefore the 9.2.1 Hierodule is weaker than depicted in the current background (Hence my suggestion to use the 9.2.1 Hierophant stats)
2) Hierophant - This is depicted as being more powerful than both the Warhound and Revenant therfore the 9.2.1 Hierophant is also weaker than depicted in the current background (hence my suggestion to use the 9.2.1 Hydraphant stats which would also remove the non-canon Hydraphant)
3) The Dominatrix - The Hierophant is listed as the largest Tyranid assault organism encountered so by making the Hierophant fit the current background you don't need the Dominatrix to be based on a Hydraphant, it could be based on the Hierophant.
4) Haruspex, Malefactor and Exocrine - They are named Heavy Assault Wave organisms therefore they exist (and are not replaced by Hierodules) and would be valid inclusions to bridge any AV/WE gaps.

There is therefore a basis to include the Haruspex, Malefactor and Exocrine in a modern fleet list and there is also a basis to increase the stats and points of both the Hierodule and Hierophant.