All of the same arguments can apply to the multiple spawning pools required by the current rule.

meh. Minis in a pile is easier than minis in a line.

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Minis in 5 or 6 different piles, all of which could be knocked, mixed together, forgotten to place units in, forgotten which is which, placed units in the wrong pile etc...

Seems about the same to me, and the queue leads to better results and clearer rules.

Not disputing the rule being better than what is proposed. I am merely relating/comparing it to what I have played with in the past.

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I can see the potential problems, but I really do think it's worth trying in a playtest or two, as I think the problems are countered by the results it will give.


I really think some form of "random generation" of what is spawned needs to be the way to go, as it's the only way that can't be abused.

There are are other ways to randomly determine what is spawned of course, but the queue is the easiest and most elegant I can think of. If anyone else can think of a better way please say!

An ordered spawn queue and separate per formation spawn pools would cause problems at many of the tournaments. The demon summon pool works mainly cause it's just a number, usually represented by 1 or 2 dice on the side of the board.

Of all the alternates, I favour E&Cs most, simple spawning from a list of spawnable units, maybe even from a bought spawn pool, much like the demon pool.

Also, a return to using synapse units to determine victory conditions would fix most of the problems caused by spawning/merging and would also be very much in keeping with the background.

More questions:

Are we now spawning 3d3 when a formation is outside of 30cm and not broken? If so why? If not, that's what it looks like to me.

Also, why can a broken formation outside of 30cm no longer spawn?

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if you want to try a spawn queue, you could just use chits and stack them in a pile. Every time something dies, stick an appropriate chit (paper, postit note, token etc) on the pile, every time you spawn, take however many chits off the bottom and see what they are. A side benefit it that it's unlikely you'll be able to remember what's on the bottom of the pile (hormagaunt, termagaunt etc), so you won't be able to game the queue to spawn back what you want (unless you're a pro poker player, in which case you won't be playing Epic).

I think the spawn queue is quite a neat simple idea

Guys
From what Jaldon has posted, it seems the 'Nids armies he uses have 3-4 spawning swarms each of 15-20 units. Now while that may not represent some extreme army composition, it does beg the question how 3-4 piles is too difficult to manage. Indeed, he goes on about some opponents concentrating on one or two swarms - thus actually cutting down management even further. Has anyone outside his group tried this?

I quite like Zombo's spawning queue concept (and I am sure it could be made to work). Later in the game when there are large numbers of units in the queue, I suspect it could get a little unwieldy, though it is certainly worth testing it's practicality even if only for a laugh.

Jaldon,
with the limited numbers of swarms and the potential ability to spawn from other queues, it does raise the question whether all this effort is actually worth it. IIRC your main concern was to prevent swarms spawning just the bugs that they needed (so 'swapping' bugs from one type of swarm to another). Given the relatively low spawning capabilities, limited unit types in the spawning pool(s) and 'simplification' of the Victory conditions etc, perhaps we could also consider dispensing with all the effort of tracking separate pools and just having a single 'dead pile'. Thoughts?

which is quite unlike any 'nid list I've seen in action (6-7 swarms). I think it would help if the AC took on board the views of people who play with very different army compositions as balancing the army for his style of play doesn't mean balancing it for everyone else.

I agree that army composition has a considerable bearing on this debate. Merging and spawning take on a greater significance where there are a larger number of smaller spawning formations. The armies I have tended to use are ~10 formations with 6-7 spawning formations each of ~8-10 units. Spawning was used to represent the 'additional horde' effect etc, and together with merging, was vital to keep the army going.

Here Jaldon seems to be using fewer but much larger formations, whose shere size should keep them going much longer. So I think he is using 6-8 formations of which 3-4 spawn. Consequently the other mechanics are less important to keep the swarms viable and the 'additional horde' effect is being considerably diminished.

On the whole I think at the very least you have to consider 8 spawning swarms as the practical upper limit so spawning has the potential to have a greater bearing. Large formations spawn to keep the swarms fighting in an attritional battle hence tend to use the lower spawn rates. When you move to smaller more numerous formations there is an increased opportunity to drop a swarm or two back to get the higher spawn rolls. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

It's also worth noting that all the spawning rules proposed have the capability to be played for an advantage outside of their proscribed use. Sacrificing units and spawn order can be gamed to get units where you want them in a somewhat messy way and at slightly increased risk over a global spawn pool method but it is still possible, formation pools don't solve that criticism.

Is it possible you meant "solve" or "don't have" here?

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So much to cover and so little time............................

Tunneler first as it is by far the easiest to cover. I said 'I hope no one has any complaints' as this is an issue best covered by the ERC as it applies to other lists also. The Nid list IS NOT the place to cover it. Fo rnow the rule, as written, stands until the ERC changes how it works.

Clarification: I have fielded a max of six swarms in my 'tank heavy' Nid lists at 3,000 pts and Jesse has fielded a max of eight. At no time did we find book-keeping a problem.

Now the Spawning Pool of Nids in a line as they were lost, it presents interesting possibilities of KISS and randomness. As it stands the idea alone (Do not panic here Ok) is just unworkable because of inherent book-keeping (IE who was lost when) problems.

That said it does present some interesting possibilities to consider as an improvement over the present system I have been pushing. Basically let us try to push on both fronts for the moment, and I mean the 'moment' for discussion and comparison purposes, ok.

Question: How do we make the idea seem random, so it cannot be exploited by either player, yet easy to carry out?

My idea to throw up to the posters, and please comment and rip apart......

We create a 'by turn' pool for losses suffered by the Nid Army that must be emptied of units before the next pool can be dipped into. It doesn't matter what order spawning occurs in, in the end phase, as long as each pool is emptied before the next is drawn from. Opponents would not really be able to exploit this as they will be fighting what is coming at them as it arrives. Nid players will not be able to exploit this as it would be foolish to try to mold losses to fit the battle field situation. Am I losing anyone yet?

This would limit the number of Spawn Pools needed to just four, would be easy to keep track of no matter how many swarms were in play, and would create its own sort of randomness as the available units would be dictated by 'per turn losses' instead of overall losses.

Any Thoughts? I know the wording is rough right now, but I am tired and still recovering from a bad cold. I mean it when I say rip into it.

As a side note I never said I wasn't interested in NEW ideas.

I do realize this is just a rough idea I have tossed up, but htoughts please

Cheers all,
Jaldon

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