I'm not sure the problem with spawning and tie breaker victory conditions can really be overcome. Would there be much support for some Nid specific tie breaker rules? Like those in the Necron list.

Necrons don't have any army specific tie breaker rules. They have a note that clarifies how reserve formations are treated for the purposes of tie breakers, but the actual calculations are the general type.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

The Necron rule states that all formations off board at the end of the game count as destroyed. That's very different from normal as all you have to do is break them not wipe them out to count their full points value.

I was using Necrons as an example of what a list with a similar rule to spawning did to address this problem. I'm not sure a viable solution is possible that doesn't feel unfair to either the Nid player or the opponent.

You don't agree that half the confusion is from having so many different systems? I don't think any of the proposed systems are that complex, but when you get 5 of them, all kinda similar but not really...

I agree that half the confusion stems from that source. However, the solution is not to take two systems that are disliked by opposite halves of the players, and kinda squish them together until they are unbalanceable and complex and nobody's happy.

I think Jaldon's stated intent going in, to streamline the rules from the 9.2.1 standard to something that can be expressed in a couple sentances and can be balanced in months instead of years, is both noble and the correct way forward for the Tyranids. There is no reason they can't achieve tha Tyranid feel without the longwinded and complex rules they had in 9.2.1. It seems that intent is slipping away unintentionally, IMO of course.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

Spector Ghost I have been at the NId list, on and off, for Years now and have seen it go from one complex idea to the next. Sometimes they start out simple then they end up being complex trying to cover percieved and real problems. I myself am guilty of doing it with the Nid list not too long ago when I suggested modified victory conditions for the Nids. As I have stated before what seemed like a good idea at the time has itself turned into a nightmare.

This time I am dead set on not letting it happen again, no matter what.

What we learned from playtesting ressurection only spawning.....It is not difficult, nor time consuming, to keep seperate spawn pools for each swarm in the game. It is much easier to do it this way then count units on the table, compare that to the swarms original units composition, and then determine how many units and what types it can spawn. Therefore I plan on taking advantage of that fact by continuing to expand on this simple and easy to impliment mechanic.

Rule: Players must keep a seperate spawning pool for each swarm. The destroyed units from a swarm are placed in the corosponding spawning pool for that swarm.

Concern has been raised that swarms that are at full strength can take advantage of swarms that are shot up by spawning away those formations units first. This is not a difficult problem to solve.

Rule: In the end phase swarms that have already lost units MUST spawn before swarms at full strength have the option to spawn units. Note this does mean spawning is no longer a free action it is a required action in the end phase that must be carried out by swarms that have lost units.. This does not change the rules for a spawning action taken as part of a Marshal Action to recover units by spawning rather then Blast Markers. A full strength swarm can dip into other swarms pools as part of a Marshal Action.

Concern that cross spawning is going to upset the balance for Tie Breakers and Break Their Spirit has been raised. With spawning being 1D3 and 2D3 we are not talking about a whole ton of units, that have been destroyed, swarming back onto the table no matter what swarm they originated from. For example in my last battle I fielded four swarms, giving me a theoretical maximum of 12xUnits per turn I could spawn back, without a Marshal Action being taken (Actually there was no time to sit back and take a marshal action in the battle everything was coming in too fast for that), and while facing the enemy (Swarms that get the 2D3, in our experience in playtesting, are Swarms early in turn one, where few units are available to spawn back anyways, and swarms that have been broken and have a ton of units to try and get back in the field). After turn 1 my losses exceeded that theoretical maximum each turn and not a single swarm had a chance to cross spawn anything, not once. I have seen this same effect in battle after battle recently, with the possibility of cross spawning being the exception rather then the rule.

Also, we playtest fully assuming in each battle that whomever won we would perform a Tie Breaker to see if things were working out as they should. We discovered that opponents that had demolished one swarm after another, in turn, came out on top about 55-60% of the time. While those that attempted to fight the Nids across the table and didn't try to single out and crush swarms, in turn, lost 90% of the time. Actually this is the exact effect I wanted to create, if you want to beat the Nids you have to come up with a plan that allows you to successfully disect the army a piece at a time or lose. If opponents want the BTS then they better demolish the biggest baddest swarm in the Nid Army post haste, preferably in a single turn, or you never will. Once again exactly the effect I wanted to create.

To me, anyways, things seem to be working out pretty well on the road to achieving the goals I have set for the Nid Army List's Special Rules. Right now we have the following.....

(A) Disposable: Actually this needs no explination as it is now part of the standard rules.
(B) Mobility: A very simple mechanic needing little explination, and it fits well.
(C) Instinctive: A very simple mechanic needing little explination, and works well.
(D) Tunneller: Could be written to say "Works the same as drop pods" and will probably become a standard Epic-A rule included in the book, someday. Once we all decide on just what that rule should say.
(E) Brood Mother: An idea I wanted to playtest so I could later write individual rules for use with the Dominatrix and Tervigon. Each will have a different effect in the game and Brood Mother will be dropped from the special rules and become a unit specific rule explained on each units data sheet.
(F) Initiative 1+ modified: This will also be easy to explain as it will state that Nids get a +1 to their roll when the rally.
(G) Spawning: Ok while I would really like this one to be dead simple to explain it looks as if it is going to take a bit more then a single paragraph to explain. So be it. However I am not going to allow it to get overly complex, no matter what. I will put up a new rule for spawning tommorrow.

Thanks for all the input and Cheers All,
Jaldon

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Tyranid AC

Rules looks good to me. A couple of questions:



Is this a typo or a rules change? I thought the spawning rules you posted had formations rolling XD3 and getting spawn points both after rallies and regroups...



As you say formations going over-strength and then down to half strength may not happen often, but what will the rule be? Fixed half-strength at the start of the battle, or fluid half-strength, either based on the largest number of units present at any point or by comparing units on the table with the dead pile? (I think a line of text is needed to explain no matter what - I can't see exactly how it would work if tie breaker is not at least mentioned somewhere.)

More like a brain fart as I had so many ideas running through my head when I was typing this. I didn't re-read my post for typos like I normally do. The rule states that a spawn action occurs after a rally is carried out. So if a swarm Marshals it my also spawn. If a formation gets a Hold action and rallies, it may spawn. All formations get to spawn in the end phase, as a free action, and in this case it is not tied to rallies. Therefore a formation could spawn twice in a single turn, once as part of an action taken, and a second time in the end phase for the free spawn.

When I post experimental rules and lists I try to be clear in the writing but as all writers you sometimes make the mistake of 'assuming' the reader knows exactly what you are thinking, when in fact you really haven't been clear. Even worse, if you don't proof read you will end up making errors



For simplicity it will be based upon the original strength of the swarm at the start of the game. Ok, there may be a swarm on the table that has managed to get itself 'over strength', but this will be happening at the expense of another swarm in the battle. It cannot be looked at as if the over strength swarm is living in a vaccuum (pun intended), those new units had to come from somewhere. This will be putting other Nid swarms understrength and incapable of returning to full strength.

Doing it this way also forces opponents to either start disecting the Nid swarms, in turn, to reduce their numbers on the table, or face the fact that they will have almost zero chance at obtaining BTS or winning a Tie Breaker.

You are correct in stating, in the notes for the rule, both BTS and Tie Breakers should be mentioned. Thanks for the heads up on it

Cheers All,
Jaldon

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Tyranid AC

partly, but any rule that you have to add a bunch of caveats to (in case of X do Y, if B is less than C do D) is basically flawed. Given that this here is an opportunity to start from scratch, I can't see why anyone would want a different, but equally confusing rule. The fact that there now seems to be resurrection spawning BUT across swarms IF a swarm has respawned all it's casualties etc etc is just heading down the same road again. Why it can't simply be "swarm spawns back its losses" I don't know. There has to be a point at which fluff is abstracted out to something that can at least work.

The problem with pure resurrection spawning is that in practice against a good opponent the rule is effectively nullified. In the game zombo and I played as he said he managed to spawn 5 units all game. He spent points on bonus' that he never got to use simply because I made sure that I was able to either wipe out his formation, keep it broken or kill all the synapse creatures. The rule had little to no impact on the game.

So if the choice is between a simple, non confusing spawning rule, and no spawning, and units cost extra for the rule, which is easily nullified, why not cut the rule? Alternatively the Summoning Pool mechanic is available and playtested. That gets around the problems nicely as well.

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SG

Ghost's Paint Blog, where everything goes that isn't something else.

I like the idea, conceptually. But it does bring into light what the Spawning Rule is supposed to represent. I've seen it mentioned that it's to represent the picking up by Synapse units, of straggler formations. Which isn't really spawning (not that I have a problem with the concept, though the name would need to be changed). But fits the whole "Summoning Pool" system, being "Here's what's actually on the battlefield, but is currently uncontrolled".

I've also seen it used to represent the actual on-field birthing of critters. Which in my mind is absolutely ridiculous, canon or not. A turn is supposed to be 15 minutes? A birthing creature gestates (to order) that quickly, and the critters spewing forth are fully grown and equipped (ie, combat ready). Even in a universe as filled with garbage physics as 40K, that's just absurd. Now, if it were just carrying pre-gestated forms, and releasing them in a manner similar to a disembark-only transport vehicle, that I could bear. And that's easy enough to resolve, rules wise. Purchase 'birthing creature', and pay a slightly discounted cost for units to be transported. Or some other similar mechanic. Have those Spawning Portal things work in a similar way, but attach 'spawned' units to a formation within say 30cm, or a single Move or something.

Just as long as it's not conception, gestation, birthing, equipping and on your door in 15 minutes, or it's free!

Morgan Vening

First off we have a simple mechanic that works eaisly on the gaming table thanks to the playtesting already done with straight resurrection spawning.

While not perfect in its own right, tweeking it will not be a problem. Pretty much the same thing happened with the Chaos list when the Daemon Pool idea was first brought up. I see the same arguments here and now that I saw back then (Too complex, not simple enough to exploitable, etc.....) The solution was found after many playtest games too shakeout the bugs (Pun intended). The solution then, as it is now for the Nid list, is to take this simple idea and tweek it into a working rule, and playtest it. Complex it ain't.

Second, the Nids are not going to become the LatD with different colors and figures to field. The Spawning pool is not going to become the shadow of the Chaos Daemon Pool. That doesn't fit the Nid list in the least.

This rule is as simple as it gets yet I keep hearing how complex it 'may' become before we have even walked down the road using it. I plan on using it before I decide if it is unworkable or too complex.

In a nut shell.........Resurrection spawning was too exploitable by opponents of the Nid army. Free spawning was too exploitable by the Nid army.......So the answer is between these two extremes.

A player must keep a seperate spawning pool for each swarm. This has already been proven to be simple to impliment and easy to execute during a game.

A swarm must spawn from its own spawn pool, and empty it, before it can spawn from another swarms spawn pool. This isn't too hard to comprehend, carry out, or explain.

In the end phase swarms must spawn starting with swarms that have suffered losses first. This isn't tough to understand and carry out either, but a bit fiddly to explain so an example will be needed.

NO changes will be made to the BTS or Tie Breaker rules, they work straight off the original strength of the swarms, period. How much simipler can it get then this. As I already stated above we looked into it after each battle (Tie Breaker) to determine what the numbers would have been. We saw no major inbalance here and feel the next step should be playtested and taken.

Would someone please explain to me exactly where the complexity in this rule is, because I do not see it anywhere, and neither do my gaming friends.

It is real easy to say "I think we are heading down the same path of complexity", but it is lot harder to prove that statement without playtesting the idea fiirst. I plan to playtest it.

We are, right now, at the very edge of closing all the loops in the Nid Special rules with spawning being the only stumbling block left to overcome. I do not plan on copping out and taking the easy road by imitating the Necron rules or the Chaos rules, I plan on coming up with a Nid rule. The two former list mentioned had to hoe their roads to reach a conclusion we can accomplish the same task.

Cheers,
Jaldon

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I know a dead parrot when I see one and I'm looking at one right now.
Tyranid AC

"Second, the Nids are not going to become the LatD with different colors and figures to field. The Spawning pool is not going to become the shadow of the Chaos Daemon Pool. That doesn't fit the Nid list in the least."

making them a shadow of the necron list is equally awful, worse infact, because it doesnt fit the feel to the army. necrons stand back up, so the quantity of their army should not increase, and their rule will not take effect until people start killing them. nids do not act like this at all.

what is wrong with my suggestion? (so far it seems to have been ignored utterly, so i've heard no reasons as to why) it seems to me to be the easiest rule to implement, and certainly the easiest to balance

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A spawning pool is easy enough to hook onto the spawning rule as they currently stand (it's just a formation that starts out dead, ready to be plundered by the other formations). Not sure if it's needed though, should probably start testing without it.

Spawning is supposed to represent lots and lots of different effects - loose creatures being gathered up, the swarm is bigger than you thought (which is were reduced spawning within 30cm comes in), creatures regenerate rapidly AND in a few cases (tervigon was it?) are outright born on the battlefield.