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[Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20213		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  Dave [ Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:15 pm ]
Post subject:  [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
I waited this out an extra two weeks to see if anything developed from the polls/discussion. Nothing's really changed in that time, so rather than push this back further I'm addressing the first half of the unit stats.

What follows are my thoughts on the changes. IE, whether they are balance related or attempts to bring the stats inline with already established stats based on 40k stat comparisons/fluff. The majority (around 75%) are downgrades. I've kept the point costs the same as 0.2.1 and plan to see if price reductions are necessary for the next iteration.

Beyond the unit stat changes Mobility has been removed and a bit of clarification added to planetary assault as to when you roll for the arrival of swarms.

Hive Tyrant
  • CC from 3+ to 4+ (brings it inline with Dreadnoughts)
  • Venom Cannon from AP5+/AT6+ to AP4+/AT5+ (essentially autocannon with 3 shots in 40k, so bumped autocannon AP and AT by 1)

Tyranid Warriors
  • changed from LV to INF (3 per stand, toughness/save equilalent to majority of 40k infantry)
  • speed from 20cm to 15cm (not fleet in 40k)
  • armor from 4+ to 5+ (6 wounds at T4/Sv5+ in 40k is slightly better than Boyz (5 wounds at T4/Sv6+))
  • removed Venon Cannon, added Deathspitters (WYSIWYG)
  • removed extra attack (7 attacks at S4 rending is roughly comparable to 5 Assault Marines in 40k, so single CC3+ attack)

Lictor
  • armor from 5+ to 6+ (5+ too good for T4/W2/Sv5+)
  • removed extra attack (balance (2 first strike attacks is way too good), only 3 attacks at S6 in 40k too)

Genestealers
  • removed extra attack and CC 4+ to 3+ (balance (2 first strike attacks is way too good), # attacks equivalent to assault marines in 40k)

Hormagaunts
  • CC from 5+ to 4+ (WS equivalent to Aspects in 40k but with an extra attack => CC4+, also helps to balance against Termagant)

Gargoyles
  • CC from 6+ to 5+ (represents their Bio-plasma attack)

Raveners
  • assuming pair of scything talons and a deathspitter each
  • removed extra attack and CC from 4+ to 2+ (# attacks equivalent to Khorne Bezerkers in 40k)

Biovore
  • armor from 5+ to 6+ (5+ too good for T4/W2/Sv6+)

Carnifex
  • armor from 3+ to 4+ RA (same as Tyrant in 40k)
  • CC from 3+ to 4+ (brings it inline with Dreadnoughts)
  • kept FF5+ to represent the 40k second edition bio-plasma attack

Zoanthrope
  • armor from 5+RA to 4+Inv (Warp Field for Inv, T4/W2/Sv2+ close to Attack Bike in 40k so 4+)
  • warp blast from AP4+ to AP5+ (equivalent to Heavy Bolter in 40k with 24" range)

Trygon
  • speed from 25cm to 20cm (inline with fluff and SM/TL move)
  • armor from 3+Inv to 5+RA (2 more wounds than fex in 40k, 5+RA at 2DC slightly better than 4+RA at 1DC)
  • removed shooting attack and FF 5+ to 6+ (bio-elective pulse is too short ranged for shooting)
  • removed EA+2 and added EA+1MW, CC3+ to CC4+ (comparably in line with 40k fex attacks)
  • added resolute (didn't want to make it fearless, but wanted to represent fearlessness is some way)

Harridan
  • DC from 4 to 3 (how it was in SM/TL, not sure why this was bumped as it never had Regeneration)
  • removed EA+2MW and added EA+1MW, CC4+ to CC5+ (comparably in line with 40k fex attacks and Trygon)
  • removed fearless and added resolute (didn't want to make it fearless, but wanted to represent fearlessness is some way)
  • Bio-Cannon 2x to 1x (equivalent to a Demolisher in 40k with 48" range, harridan doesn't get the bonus for twin because its cannons weren't as good as Exocrine's in SM/TL)
  • removed leader (no grounds in fluff for it)

Hive Fleet Onachus v.0.3
Author:  frogbear [ Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Now that is a lot of changes.

I am happy to test the list when I find a willing opponent. :)

I will let you know how it goes

Cheers....
Author:  Dave [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Sounds good, batreps are welcome.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Dave wrote:
Tyranid Warriors
  • changed from LV to INF (3 per stand, toughness/save equilalent to majority of 40k infantry)
  • speed from 20cm to 15cm (not fleet in 40k)
  • armor from 4+ to 5+ (6 wounds at T4/Sv5+ in 40k is slightly better than Boyz (5 wounds at T4/Sv6+))
  • removed Venon Cannon, added Deathspitters (WYSIWYG)
  • removed extra attack (7 attacks at S4 rending is roughly comparable to 5 Assault Marines in 40k, so single CC3+ attack)

Warriors have 3 wounds. Armour 4+ is more appropriate.

Quote:
Lictor
  • armor from 5+ to 6+ (5+ too good for T4/W2/Sv5+)
  • removed extra attack (balance (2 first strike attacks is way too good), only 3 attacks at S6 in 40k too)

Lictors have 3 wounds.
They were given a good armour save in Epic to represent their stealth abilities.



Quote:
Biovore
  • armor from 5+ to 6+ (5+ too good for T4/W2/Sv6+)

Biovores have a 4+ save in 40k.
Going by their 40k stats, they should probably be 3 to a base infantry like Warriors.

Quote:
Zoanthrope
  • armor from 5+RA to 4+Inv (Warp Field for Inv, T4/W2/Sv2+ close to Attack Bike in 40k so 4+)
  • warp blast from AP4+ to AP5+ (equivalent to Heavy Bolter in 40k with 24" range)

Zoanthropes lob out a S5 shot in 40k, but it's not equivilent to a Heavy Bolter. It's a template attack with AP3, much, much better.
Again, going by their 40k stats they should probably be Infantry.

Quote:
Raveners

* assuming pair of scything talons and a deathspitter each

The most common proxy model just has two pairs of scything talons.

Quote:
Harridan
[list]
[*]DC from 4 to 3 (how it was in SM/TL, not sure why this was bumped as it never had Regeneration)

It was bumped up because it's massive, the FW model was about twice the size it was in SM/TL.


Overall I like about half your stat changes, whilst the other half either reflect a return to the stats of 15 years ago (Not a good thing), or apparent mis-understandings because you don't appear to have read the current Tyranid codex particularly closely.
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Tyranids have a convenient position in the 40K Universe in that changes to their stats can be explained away by them evolving over time. Given that the Onachus list was designed to reflect a 'first contact' Tyranid list, the stats of "15 years ago" would be more appropriate, in which case it is not only a good thing but reflects a good understanding of the bugs.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Quote:
Given that the Onachus list was designed to reflect a 'first contact' Tyranid list, the stats of "15 years ago" would be more appropriate,

I've no objection to it being a "first contact" list... but on the other hand, diverging into having a completely different set of unit stats for "common" units isn't the way to go IMO.

Of course, I think the the best way to go is to have an active army list developer working on one main list first, rather than four-five different lists pulling in six different directions. :-/
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
I agree on the AC point, but not on the unit stat differences. It's perfectly acceptable and has been for some time. I didn't exactly see you consulting on every unit type for the the Siege lists - you simply renamed the units to reflect the variation. And you aren't the first person to do that either; it's the way of things.

Besides, you can't have -for example- a pre-Eldar Zoanthrope and a post-Eldar Zoanthrope with the same stats. That makes no sense at all. I agree that having some (most? all?) of the rule mechanics being the same across the board is ideal, but changing formation sizes and unit availability is not going to be enough variation for a variant Tyranid list.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Quote:
I didn't exactly see you consulting on every unit type for the the Siege lists - you simply renamed the units to reflect the variation. And you aren't the first person to do that either; it's the way of things.

Aye that is the way of things, to change the unit name.

But this list has two dozen units all using the same name but different stats as the other 'nid lists... ie: It's not following the way of things, it's just looking to over-write the other lists?


Frankly, I think it's gotten to the point where the Tyranid list(s) *NEED* a single Champion to coordinate things, or we're just going to end up with several completely different lists with almost no commonality at all. Total chaos.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
I'm going to open a few unit stats threads soon to see if we can get some agreement.
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Quote:
But this list has two dozen units all using the same name but different stats as the other 'nid lists... ie: It's not following the way of things, it's just looking to over-write the other lists?


Then we'll rename the units if need be, but you seriously need to stop throwing around accusations of some sort of Tyranid coup (or at this point even hinting at them). Are you intentionally trying to piss us off?
Author:  captPiett [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Frankly, I think it's gotten to the point where the Tyranid list(s) *NEED* a single Champion to coordinate things, or we're just going to end up with several completely different lists with almost no commonality at all. Total chaos.


Meh. This is overrated, IMO. The same arrangement produced 9.2.1, with all the baggage that entails.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Moscovian wrote:
Are you intentionally trying to piss us off?

My comments here about diverging unit stats could be labeled at every one of the 4-5 Tyranid lists in development.

Through good intentions all round, it's turning completely chaotic.

Quote:
Meh. This is overrated, IMO. The same arrangement produced 9.2.1, with all the baggage that entails.

Years of incompetent Championship produced 9.2.1.

The system isn't to blame, because that same system has produced many balanced and tactically complex army lists.

For example the Tau, a list that struggled and meandered for 6 years, when given to a competent and dedicated Champion was then finished in less than one year.
Author:  Dave [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:19 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Re: the stats.

I've compared stats from SM/TL, and from 2nd edition 40k through 5th edition. The unit stats I came up with are more of an average across that comparison rather than a strict adherence to 5th edition (otherwise the Hormagaunt and Gargoyle CC bumps wouldn't have gone through, and yes Warriors would have 4+ armor, etc).

If the stats do lean towards anything it's the SM/TL and 2nd edition 40k rules, as that's the direction of this list. It's old, old, incredibly old school.

If the different stats are a problem then we'll do as Mosc pointed out will add "patterns" like it was done for the IG tanks.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Quote:
If the different stats are a problem then we'll do as Mosc pointed out will add "patterns" like it was done for the IG tanks.

If you're not willing to make any compromises on stats so as to have commonality between all Tyranid lists, then that's going to be a second best, I guess.

Question: Are you going to delete the following units:

- Broodlord (Didn't appear until HF Leviathan)
- Biovore (Didn't appear until after significant Ork contact)
- Meiotic Spore (Didn't appear until the Anphellion Project)

All three are not units that were in the "first contact" fleet.
Author:  Moscovian [ Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: [Epic: Xenos] Hive Fleet Onachus v0.3
Evil and Chaos wrote:
Moscovian wrote:
Are you intentionally trying to piss us off?

My comments here about diverging unit stats could be labeled at every one of the 4-5 Tyranid lists in development.

Through good intentions all round, it's turning completely chaotic.


Stating that we're trying to "overwrite" the other Tyranid lists is a funny way of saying that. And your past divisive comments haven't been directed at the 4-5 lists out there; they've been specifically directed at this one list and at Dave and I. In the interests of being constructive and moving forward, it might be a good idea to avoid things like reading our intentions from 3500 miles away.
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