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| Basic Nid Initiative Poll http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=20180 |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 5:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
Per discussions in this thread, there is a consensus on overall approach of basic Initiative, plus mods based on what actions we should encourage in a Nid army. This poll is to track opinions on the specific preferences. Please reference the thread for discussions of the relative merits of the choices. Please vote for the one that's closest to your personal preferences, even if it's not exactly as you would like. I am intentionally NOT leaving an "Other" choice. There are hundreds of combinations of modifiers just in the few options we have. If we open up the poll to everyone posting their personal, pet combination it will accomplish nothing. If 2 selections have strong support, we can work on a compromise at that point. I'm leaving the poll open for 1 week. |
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| Author: | BlackLegion [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:02 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
I voted for: 1+ Initiative, 2+ Initiative for Independents, +1 Engage, +1 Rally (Leviathan) I also like the idea of no -2 for Rally as Onachus has but only for formations with Synapses. My choice assumes that there will be a penalty for formations which have lost all Synapses. Bu those formations could be given the +1 Engage bonus if the majority of it's units/clusters are "Hunters" or +1 on Sustain if they are "Lurkers". |
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| Author: | fredmans [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:19 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
I voted for the 9.2.1 rules. I have played them extensively, and I fail to see problems with the Initiative rule. /Fredmans |
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| Author: | mattthemuppet [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
2+ init, largely because I don't like the (essentially) autorally of Onachus and I think the Engage modifiers best capture the assault mentality of 'nids (much like Orks, only more so). |
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| Author: | carlos [ Tue Feb 08, 2011 8:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
I voted for the 9.2 option. Never played the list, but same as Jormugandr and never felt that was unbalanced and it was really flavorful in terms of trying to preserve synapse and playing in an aggressive way. |
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| Author: | Angel_of_Caliban [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:18 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
I voted: 1+ Initiative, +1 Engage, +1 Rally (Leviathan Variant) But my real choice would be: 2+ Initiative, +1 Engage, +1 Rally |
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| Author: | MikeT [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
I'm not sure a bonus to engage is necessarily that fluffy. Orks want to engage, normally at the expense of more measured tactics. Tyranids often do engage, because most of their units are best there. That shouldn't mean Tyranid long range units would want to engage like Ork ones would. If anything, their instinctive behaviour would be to sit back and keep shooting. |
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| Author: | Athmospheric [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
MikeT wrote: I'm not sure a bonus to engage is necessarily that fluffy. Orks want to engage, normally at the expense of more measured tactics. Tyranids often do engage, because most of their units are best there. That shouldn't mean Tyranid long range units would want to engage like Ork ones would. If anything, their instinctive behaviour would be to sit back and keep shooting. Yes. Tyranids simply do what the hive mind tells them to do. 1+ init flat, possibly without the rally bonus but I like it still, so Onachus for me. I agree with MikeT that bonuses to engage are indeed more orky (or blood angelic ?) than tyranid-ish in fact. Tyranid just don't have many issue with morale, and are very immediately obedient and responsive to hierarchy. Who could be more disciplined ? 1+ init. KISS. Everything else is discussing what would happen when there are no synapses, and that's another thread. |
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| Author: | Dwarf Supreme [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
Onachus for me, too. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:13 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
Initiative is not just following orders unfailingly. Initiative also includes knowledge and certainty of command and the Hive Mind is not omniscient, so a failed activation can just as easily represent absolute adherence to a stupid order because the Hive Mind has misinterpreted the tactical situation. It includes the ability of small units to consider broader strategic goals and make independent tactical decisions when command is absent or just wrong, which Nids are utterly lacking. Similarly, on the shooty/engage end of things, the shooty nids might tend to have a shooting instinct, but the Hive Mind wants to eat things. A bonus to Engage doesn't negate the ability to do other actions and 2+ Initiative is every bit as much "sit back and keep shooting" as IG artillerists. Both issues (base Initiative and bonus/non-bonus to Engage) can reasonably be interpreted in various shades based on the fluff. |
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| Author: | Evil and Chaos [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:25 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
Seems right now that the Initiative 2+ option is winning, but it's outnumbered 7 to 3 by the various Initiative 1+ options when combined. Hmmm. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Wed Feb 09, 2011 4:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
Yup, having two leviathan options has split the vote; together the leviathan model is ahead. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:29 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
My concern is that a 1+ base Initiative upsets the balance of shooting-v-assaulting units in the list. Shooting actions gain a big boost to reliability. In the Onachus list, this is obscured by the fact that all the core swarms are forced to be based on gaunts. However, unless every list is expected to be forced into a similar mold, that won't hold up. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:18 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
nealhunt wrote: My concern is that a 1+ base Initiative upsets the balance of shooting-v-assaulting units in the list. Shooting actions gain a big boost to reliability. In the Onachus list, this is obscured by the fact that all the core swarms are forced to be based on gaunts. However, unless every list is expected to be forced into a similar mold, that won't hold up. Similarly, in leviathan every formation must have gaunts, raveners or gargoyles as half the clusters, meaning that there are no dedicated artillery formations, so it's not that big a change. But either way, my argument for 1+ initiative basic is simple; Tyranids are under the direct control of the Hive Mind, and as long as that control is current (synapse in the formation), and unaffected by outside events (no BMs, not retaining), the Hive Mind should have perfect control over what the formation does, i.e. 1+ initiative. Whatever it wants to do it should be able to, as they are practically radio controlled when in synapse range. Also, is nid artillery really that good that we need to worry about it becoming more useful? |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: Basic Nid Initiative Poll |
zombocom wrote: the Hive Mind should have perfect control over what the formation does, i.e. 1+ initiative. 1+ Initiative is whatever the player wants them to do. Therefore, 1+ is not just absolute control, but also player-level near-omniscience about the battle by the Hive Mind. Quote: Also, is nid artillery really that good that we need to worry about it becoming more useful? Yes. Nid arty is currently comparable to what Eldar or IG can get for a similar point cost. It's different, obviously - slightly weaker firepower, slower, better rally, better armor - but overall comparable. I'm pretty sure you'd agree that if either of those armies shifted their arty to 1+ Initiative that a point adjustment would be in order. But, more to the point, it's not just arty that gains. It's all shooting actions and March. It helps coordinate a typical double/support/assault combo (arguably improving the relative value of FF as well). It makes the Nids more mobile (double and march) so they are better at setting up for the following turn. It makes shooting bugs better at running down enemy formations that are broken. They are better at objective grabs. In short, more finesse, less bludgeon. |
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