As a rough guide where do people think a fair limit is on the combined DC of all WE in Titan lists?

The issue stemmed from some feedback on my Draconis Bio-Titan list that there was just too much heavily armoured WE to kill (from an OGBM list)

Bearing in mind that the DC, Save, Points and Inv save on Tyranid Bio-Titans is relatively constant across all lists (All Hydraphants are 400-450pts, DC8, 4+RA and 6+Inv, Hierophants are 275-300pts, DC5 or 6, 4+ or 5+ RA and 6+Inv)

Putting these stats into any 3000pt Bio-Titan list gives around 50-56DC at 4+RA, 6+Inv (Where the two bio-titans are the mainstay of the list). Compared to the peak values of the AMTL (~30DC 4+RA + Void Shields (24-30)) and OGBM (~40DC 4+RA + Power Fields (40-50)).

Is a Bio-Titan list with these sorts of figures just too tough and if it is what options are there to change them (Noting that no other titan list has altered the stats of the Titans specifically for a Titan list and the points are usually similar to the points in normal lists).

Just some thoughts on your thoughts. I agree that the basic titan costs or stats should not be changed for a titan army list. However, there has to be some expansion of the current scope, beyond more bio-titans. Perhaps by adding various super-heavies and AV:s, the list could be an Epic Nidzilla version of the current list. Perhaps the Carnifex "chassis" could be explored for various versions, more than two kinds of Hierodules, and why not even a Gigantophant. Most other titan lists can access far more expensive titans than 400 points. Without development towards more expensive titans or formations, we are talking titan swarms, and that can indeed prove a tad extreme.

/Fredmans

Titans swarm sounds good to me.

It's not just total DC. Biotitans have a lot of advantages in terms of rallying and BMs. Between that and the lower average point cost per titan, the total number of hard activations that will remain through the whole game is vastly better than AMTL and OGBM.


This is worth a try but it needs to be watched closely. It might go a ways towards reducing activation count but will have certain drawbacks in terms of massed DC for assaults. Also, formation coherency is 5xDC, so a 2-3 titan swarm could spread out wide to contest objectives.


Overall, I think lots of heavier units across the board is the most promising approach for a biotitan-esque list. Besides "lots of bigger bugs" fits the background better than primarily biotitans, imho.

While basic stats probably shouldn't change, point values are always up for change in alternate lists; point values are based on a units value to the specific army list, not a general value that must be adhered to.

It's very possible that Bio-Titans might be "worth more" in a pure WE list as allowing such a list, as in an effective and higher activation list than some of the other WE list, might mean higher prices for them for such a list.

Have you looked at the Nidzilla-variant I posted earlier?

I was aware of a Phase II list, but not a Nidzilla list. I guess it was hard to find among the other Chroma variant lists

/Fredmans

Currently the list is here and is the Bio-Titan Swarm variety.
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=18769

Its setup like the AMTL list with each Bio-Titan swarm allowing 2 support formations.
The main Bio-Titan Swarms consist of 2-3 Hierophants, Dominatrix & 2 Hierophants/Hydraphants, 1-2 Hydraphants, 1 Vituperator & 0-2 Harridans, 1 Viragon (Big Trygon) & 0-2 Trygons/Mawlocs.
The support swarms are 3 Hierodules, 1 Hive Tyrant & 3 Carnifex, 3 Lictors, 3 Trygons/Mawlocs, 5 Meiotic Spores, 2 Harridans, Razorfiend/Hive Ship
Also noting that the Hierophant and Hydraphant have weapon choices and can buy Biomorphs
Any Synapse units (Including Bio-Titans with a Synapse Node which can be bought as a biomorph) can buy 2 additional broods (1 Hierodule, 1 Trygon/Mawloc, 1 Tyrannofex, 3 Carnifex)

Essentially its all about swarms using mostly existing background units.

Activations are controlled by placing Hierophants in pairs (2 for 575pts). That leaves the Vituperator as the cheapest and substantially weakest main formation (at 300pts). At 3000pts you're looking at 6-7 individual Hydraphants (400pts base cost, 450pts with 2 Assault Bio-Titan weapons) or 10 Hierophants in 5 formations. Mix and match some cheaper support formations and I'd put the typical activation count at ~10.

The Peak Bio-Titan cost is for the 0-2 Hydraphants acting as Dominatrix bodyguards that can max out at 675pts each (Plus the compulsary Dom at 475pts).

Looking at the 9.2.1 Hydraphant, for the points its 75-100% more resilient than the Warlord Titan and ~50% more resilient than the Great Gargant. Of course the firepower is inferior, it really needs to engage in CC (and against an opposing Titan that does hurt) and it isn't particularly great in a supporting fire role (with a 5+ FF). Its just in a Bio-Titan list it may just grind out results purely on not dying.

I wouldn't play against the Draconis list.

Dom + Heirodules
6x Hydraphant

That's 56 DC in big bugs and another 6 for the Dom 'dules. 7 activations, but they are all rock hard. They can all have ranged fire to prep assaults and extra FF for free. No infantry, so AP units are reduced to assault-only. As WEs they cannot be clipped and if the Nid player pairs them off tightly, it will be heard to even engage one in FF without another in support.

There are simply no tournament lists that could possibly fight that.

Thats certainly the overall feeling. Its just what to do about it.

The other Titan focussed lists also have greatly reduced to no infantry in lists so I don't see that specifically as much of a problem (that would assume you think the AMTL and OGBM lists are ok)

I also can't see anything overly powerful in the weapon stats and points, at least not compared to the weapons on other races titans.

That comes back to my original point and what I take from your comments, they're just too hard.

Do you think the Bio-Titans and the available weapons are around the right cost for the Jormungandr list? (The differences to the 9.2.1 list are mostly in the alternate weapons so if there is a costing issue then it will be with the weapons)

So the only thing I can see to improve the Draconis list to playability is to jack up the prices of all the Bio-Titans.

That would be the most likely solution to the problem.

Most of the other Titan-focused list don't have core formations under 500 points, so one can't get that many hard activations making them more managable, nor can they "stack" a bunch of war engines in a single formation. Tyranid Titans also have speed going for them over most others.

This is a perfect example of how the same unit may need a different 'value' in different army lists.

Yeah, sorry. I suppose that was established and my post wasn't terribly helpful.


You could dial back the total titans available or use some combination of restriction and price. I think you can still get a "big bug" feel while still requiring a certain amount of the "gribbly hordes" to accompany them.

Using the current structure, perhaps a minimum number of support swarms per titan. Those support swarms are mostly "heavy" in feel so they should keep the "big bug" feel. You could increase the size of some of the smaller support swarm options as well to trim activation count slightly. Just a minimum of 1 support formation per titan at ~200 each would drop the list down to ~4 Dom/Hydra sized titans at 3K instead of 7. That's closer to being in line with what you see in the AMTL and OGBM, where there are 3-4 battle titans or gargants.

Another option might be to require a minimum number of broods, like the traditional structure, thereby forcing players to take some synapse titans to herd the broods. If necessary, broods could be upsized to bigger bugs to keep flavor and feel. There'd be either 2-3 titans trailing little bugs behind them or some synapse-containing Support Swarms taking up the slack. Either way, 1/4 minimum broods would drop it down to 4-5 Dom/Hydra sized titans at 3K.

Or you could go with a more traditional Nid structure and tweak it to loosen up titan restrictions and provide an incentive for them in some way, e.g. titan-synapse don't come out of both categories. Combined with some bigger-bug broods and some WE-based independent swarms as "bug SHT companies", that might give it a sufficiently nid-zilla feel.

All good suggestions, certainly something to think about.

So now a point blank question, are the Hierophant and Hydraphant too cheap in mixed lists (Jormungandr, 9.2.1, Leviathan)?

Pros
Speed (Between Imperial and Eldar Titans)
CC (3+ or better and plenty of TK weapons)
Resilience (see below)
Cheap (good for activations)

Cons
Ranged Weaponry (Short range, fewer weapons than Imperial/Ork)
FF (5+ and only average through rolling lots of dice)

For resilience I calculated the average number of hits required to kill one as DC/Probability of causing a wound. Shielded titans then get the average number of shields added to the calculated figure.
Average number of hits to kill a titan (Minimum titan cost, Regular hits/MW hits (Note that Criticals are ignored and shields are counted but don't regenerate so the Imperial titans are a little low)
Warhound 275pts, 8.75/6.5 - Reaver 575pts, 28/16 - Warlord 725pts, 38/22 - Imperator 1250pts, 56/32
Revenant 325pts, 13.5/9 - Phantom 750pts, 27/18
Supa Stompa 275pts, 18/10 - Gargant 600pts, 37/21 - Great Gargant 800pts, 57.5/33.5
9.2.1 Hierophant 275pts, 16.2/10.8 - Hierophant 275pts, 24/12 - Hydraphant 400pts, 38.4/19.2 - Viragon 450pts, 18.9/12.6

From that I'd probably peg the 9.2.1 Hierophant at slightly too expensive (compared to Supa Stompa) and my Hierophant slightly too cheap (go to 300pts). The Hydraphant could probably go to 500pts (the 9.2.1 Hydraphant is probably too cheap as well but has a fixed weapon config placing more of a restriction on its use).

I backed off on the huge points increases. I've reshuffled the Bio-Titan and Support Swarms so the Bio-Titan Swarm minimum cost is 450pts and you also need to take 1-2 support swarms where the support swarm minimum cost is 200pts. Puts a cap on individual Hydraphants of 4 maximum (although you can still take more Bio-Titans by pairing them, at activation cost).

Additional info below added 29/12/2010
Further reshuffle to get all the 4+RA WE in the Bio-Titan section. Also removed all the FF extra attacks on the Bio-Titan weapons.
Number of activations at 3000pts are in the 6-8 range with around half being Bio-Titan formations (although activations can be sacrificed to get big and hard to kill Bio-Titan formations in the 750-1300pt range).
List is generally more resilient than the OGBM (Better at AT fire resistance, Similar for MW and worse for TK)
High number of MW and TK CC attacks
Very low number of MW and TK ranged attacks
Very low number of MW and TK FF attacks
Solid AP and AT ranged fire compared to AMTL and OGBM lists but range is mostly limited to <45cm.