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Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
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Author:  fredmans [ Sat Dec 19, 2009 11:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Since Genestealer Cults have become a topic, I thought I should post this while it might draw some attention. This past year, a few of my friends and I have rekindled our interest in Epic. A few of us had not played since the golden heydays of Space Marine, and the nostalgic part of us wanted to recreate a Genestealer Cult Uprising army list and a PDF adversary. These are some of the ideas we have come up with (at this point, Cult only, PDF is still brewing). The PDF file contains an army list and three special rules for the army:

The idea behind the army list is to picture the Cult at the moment of open rebellion. There is a Cult element, but also a PDF rebellion fighting alongside the Cultists. It draws heavily from the old Cult army, LatD, but with some other inventions and inspirational sources as well. As a PDF turned astray, it is a low-tech IG army, where the good stuff (tanks/light artillery/AA/aircraft) is restricted.

The desired feel of the army is a low-tech army, reliant upon salvaged/looted wargear with some elite CC options, that is aggressive, unorganized and fights in unconventional manners.

Some basic troop explanations might be handy:
Patriarch: Supreme Commander (Genestealer formations)
Magus: Supreme Commander (Human formations)
Genestealers: The Genestealers will be the same as in the Tyranids list for simplicity's sake.
Hybrid Genestealers: Equals LatD Mutants
Brood Brothers: CC5+, FF6+, 1 in 2 carries Autocannon
Coven Command: Inspiring, Commander
Rebel Command: Leader
Hybrid Genestealer Guerrilla: Cunning hybrids, CC3+, FF5+, Free Planetfall.
Human Bombs: may utilize First Strike, CC3+. Counts as casualty.
Incendiary Vehicles: same as Human Bombs, although MW
Attack Buggies: Ork Buggies
Land Hulks: Salvaged cannon-less Leeman Russ, fitted with pintle Heavy Stubbers and driven towards enemy lines loaded with Purestrains.
Trucks: Transport (2). LV Armour 6+
Half-tracks: Transport (1). LV armour 5+, Twin Heavy Stubber

Possible controversies:
Possible to field 2 x 0.5 Supreme Commanders (to make up for shabby initiative)
Ferocious: Auto-engage, although with penalties
What do you mean, they cut the power: Forcing an enemy re-roll/turn is quite powerful, and awfully hard to balance in points, but we have it at SC +25 at the moment.

All the stats are not included, since nothing is written in stone.

So, basically, what are your thoughts?

EDIT: If this should be moved to Other Forces, please let me know.

/Fredmans
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:26 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (fredmans @ Dec. 20 2009, 07:54 )

Some basic troop explanations might be handy:
Patriarch: Supreme Commander (Genestealer formations)
Magus: Supreme Commander (Human formations)
Genestealers: The Genestealers will be the same as in the Tyranids list for simplicity's sake.
Hybrid Genestealers: Equals LatD Mutants
Brood Brothers: CC5+, FF6+, 1 in 2 carries Autocannon
Coven Command: Inspiring, Commander
Rebel Command: Leader
Hybrid Genestealer Guerrilla: Cunning hybrids, CC3+, FF5+, Free Planetfall.
Human Bombs: may utilize First Strike, CC3+. Counts as casualty.
Incendiary Vehicles: same as Human Bombs, although MW
Attack Buggies: Ork Buggies
Land Hulks: Salvaged cannon-less Leeman Russ, fitted with pintle Heavy Stubbers and driven towards enemy lines loaded with Purestrains.
Trucks: Transport (2). LV Armour 6+
Half-tracks: Transport (1). LV armour 5+, Twin Heavy Stubber

Possible controversies:
Possible to field 2 x 0.5 Supreme Commanders (to make up for shabby initiative)
Ferocious: Auto-engage, although with penalties
What do you mean, they cut the power: Forcing an enemy re-roll/turn is quite powerful, and awfully hard to balance in points, but we have it at SC +25 at the moment.

All the stats are not included, since nothing is written in stone.

So, basically, what are your thoughts?

EDIT: If this should be moved to Other Forces, please let me know.

/Fredmans

Fredmans,

I have trouble understanding the reasonings for including these units. Can you please explain how you see them fitting into a list:

- Hybrid Genestealer Guerrilla: Cunning hybrids, CC3+, FF5+, Free Planetfall.  (??)

- Human Bombs: may utilize First Strike, CC3+. Counts as casualty.

In regards to the one below, you could look at what we have done with the Blood Rage rule as it appears to be what you are looking for.

Your idea: Ferocious: Auto-engage, although with penalties

Blood Rage:  Any formation ..... that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make an Engage action or Shoot at -1 rather than a Hold action.  


The rest on an initial glance looks interesting. Just need to watch the fiddly rules. Put some time into a list and I will be happy to go through it.

Cheers....   :yay:
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:02 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 19 2009, 23:26 )

I have trouble understanding the reasonings for including these units. Can you please explain how you see them fitting into a list:

- Hybrid Genestealer Guerrilla: Cunning hybrids, CC3+, FF5+, Free Planetfall.  (??)

- Human Bombs: may utilize First Strike, CC3+. Counts as casualty.

In regards to the one below, you could look at what we have done with the Blood Rage rule as it appears to be what you are looking for.

Your idea: Ferocious: Auto-engage, although with penalties

Blood Rage:  Any formation ..... that fails its Action Test (see 1.6.2 of the Epic: Armageddon rulebook) must make an Engage action or Shoot at -1 rather than a Hold action.  


The rest on an initial glance looks interesting. Just need to watch the fiddly rules. Put some time into a list and I will be happy to go through it.

Cheers....   :yay:

Cheers, frogbear. I know how much work you have put into the world eaters list, and I really appreciate it (and your comments).

Free Planetfall would symbolize Ambush, but requires pre-plotting where Teleport does not.

Human Bombs/Incendiary Vehicles are the brain children of the old list, but I find the idea of them as very fitting to the army concept I have in mind, an army fighting in unorthodox, unconventional ways.

In the list, they are fearless and expendable, which I do not find fitting at all. If I were a general, I would care if my weapons were blown up before they could be put to use. Also, I do not think low-ranking/newly-recruited cult members deserve the status of Fearless.

I would prefer semi-expendable (only if the harness/bomb load is used), and wonder if a weapon ability would suffice, but I do not want to introduce new abilitites. If they cannot be made to work, I prefer not to include them.

I had a look at Blood-rage, and I like the concept (it is after all very similar), but more fitting to your army, which is a frenzied army of Engagementoholics. In this army, only the Genestealer element prefers engagements. The PDF element is more IG/shooting, and a "must engage" rule would not seem characteristic for the army as a whole.

Also, after having playtested Tyranids a bit, I know that some people cannot come to terms with the auto-engage on retain (although it is a must in my opinion). My suggested rule makes auto-engage on retain possible, but with a heavy penalty (2BM). The fiddliness comes from anticipating that a formation could break from 1BM. Since the penalty (2BM) cannot take effect, the action is forbidden.

It could well be argued that a broken formation shopuld not be able to engage, but becomes broken. In that case, the fiddliness can be removed, and the rule becomes simpler. I just happen to like the desperate feel of a broken formation engaging in an all-or-nothing action.

/Fredmans
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 10:56 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (fredmans @ Dec. 20 2009, 18:02 )

My suggested rule makes auto-engage on retain possible, but with a heavy penalty (2BM). The fiddliness comes from anticipating that a formation could break from 1BM. Since the penalty (2BM) cannot take effect, the action is forbidden.

This is a very interesting take on the rule and it intrigues me. You will finde that even this however is not enough for people as the idea of a charge after a failed initiative seems to be bugbear. The 2BM idea is very interesting - and quite debilitating (or could be)

Quote: 

It could well be argued that a broken formation shopuld not be able to engage, but becomes broken. In that case, the fiddliness can be removed, and the rule becomes simpler. I just happen to like the desperate feel of a broken formation engaging in an all-or-nothing action.


With the Blood Rage rule, if the unit breaks due to a failed initiative, they remain broken and cannot charge. Are you saying that in your rule, they would be able to charge? If so, would the be wiped out if it lost the combat due to being broken already?
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:10 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
[quote="frogbear,Dec. 20 2009, 09:56 "][/quote]
Quote: 

This is a very interesting take on the rule and it intrigues me. You will finde that even this however is not enough for people as the idea of a charge after a failed initiative seems to be bugbear. The 2BM idea is very interesting - and quite debilitating (or could be)


I am glad that it intrigues you. I find it interesting (both in thought and game-play), since it is hard to gain BM advantages and being CC-oriented, it is hard to perform clipping engagements.

Quote: 

With the Blood Rage rule, if the unit breaks due to a failed initiative, they remain broken and cannot charge. Are you saying that in your rule, they would be able to charge? If so, would the be wiped out if it lost the combat due to being broken already?


That is the suggested rule. If the bugbear becomes too scary, or the rules too fiddly (due to the issue of breaking from the first BM), I will just drop it, but the army needs something (being Initiative 3+) and I find it quite fitting to the overall theme. Being broken, they will either be wiped out or remain broken after the combat (plus taking lots of damage from the BM:s inflicted after combat resolution).
Author:  Morgan Vening [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (fredmans @ Dec. 20 2009, 10:10 )

That is the suggested rule. If the bugbear becomes too scary, or the rules too fiddly (due to the issue of breaking from the first BM), I will just drop it, but the army needs something (being Initiative 3+) and I find it quite fitting to the overall theme. Being broken, they will either be wiped out or remain broken after the combat (plus taking lots of damage from the BM:s inflicted after combat resolution).

You would need to specify this, as currently, a broken formation that wins an assault doesn't take any additional casualties from 'BMs' gained in the engagement (1.12.9)

Morgan Vening
Author:  frogbear [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 11:51 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (Hena @ Dec. 20 2009, 19:45 )

The Special rule of engaging on hold is not that good IMO. I'd try to steer clear of them.

Boo!    :ooooo:
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (Hena @ Dec. 20 2009, 10:45 )

Some comments.

Initiative related
The Special rule of engaging on hold is not that good IMO. I'd try to steer clear of them. The re-rolls from strategical and magus and patriarch sounds reall fiddly. I would suggest allowing better ini for the command stand to be taken, thus making it rather important to keep alive. Besides is 3+ really good idea as LatD also has 2+ if you don't mix chaos gods. I'd give Purestrain ini 2+ or possibly even 1+, to make them the absolute elite in the list :smile:.


Units
Looted Tanks. No Super Heavies. Epic lists in general should have some WEs, but I think this list might be an exception. Also formation of 6 might be a good idea if these are to be able to do something. BM will cripple this so fast it's not funny.

Free Planetfall means scattering per unit. Possibly an "Ambush upgrade" where you get a "ambush marker" which transports N units (no datasheet needed or something like Drop Pod).

AA guns. What are these? Heavy AA guns like in Kriegs?

Attack Buggies. What are these?

Well, at one point, I had Purestrains (and Patriarch) giving the formation 2+ ini, so I am open to that suggestion. I have some alternative ideas:

Current idea: Initiative 3+, 2 re-rolls with Inner Circle (maybe making them two straight SC rolls to further simplify, and Engage on Hold with 2BM:s)

Alternative ideas:
* Initiative 3+, 1+ if the formation contains Patriarch or Purestrains (standard SC rules, no engage on hold).
* Inititative 3+/2+ (with +1 as long as Patriarch, Magus or SC is alive, no engage on hold)

Engage on Hold is a can of worms, but 2BM:s (and no engagement if broken), should at least be feasible.

AA-Guns were included with Hydra Platforms in mind. So probably 2xAP4+/AT5+/AA5+ 45 cm
Buggies have the stats of Ork War Buggies.

No super-heavy and 6 Tanks makes sense. Consider it changed. I just had a load of vintage super-heavies in my closet.

Pre-plotted ambush marker is a great idea. Would you keep the scatter for the marker?

Thanks for your thoughts, Hena, much appreciated.

/Fredmans
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ Dec. 20 2009, 10:49 )

Quote: (fredmans @ Dec. 20 2009, 10:10 )

That is the suggested rule. If the bugbear becomes too scary, or the rules too fiddly (due to the issue of breaking from the first BM), I will just drop it, but the army needs something (being Initiative 3+) and I find it quite fitting to the overall theme. Being broken, they will either be wiped out or remain broken after the combat (plus taking lots of damage from the BM:s inflicted after combat resolution).

You would need to specify this, as currently, a broken formation that wins an assault doesn't take any additional casualties from 'BMs' gained in the engagement (1.12.9)

Morgan Vening


Thanks for the input, Morgan. I am thinking of terminating that idea for now. Consider the suggestion to be 2 BM:s for Engagement on Hold action. If the unit becomes broken, it must make a withdrawal action like other troops.
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 12:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (frogbear @ Dec. 20 2009, 10:51 )

Quote: (Hena @ Dec. 20 2009, 19:45 )

The Special rule of engaging on hold is not that good IMO. I'd try to steer clear of them.

Boo!    :ooooo:

We seem to have a common darling   :yay:  

/Fredmans
Author:  Man of kent [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
CC3 is a little too much for those cunning hybrids no? No way they're as good as howling banshees for example...? CC4 i'd argue.
R>

EDIT: I'd also have genestealers as an upgrade only on the Cult Coven: just having it consist of Hybrids and Brood Brothers.

Traditionally don't the Hybrids usually get all the decent heavy weapons?
I'd be tempted to keep the old 30cm AP/AT6+ heavy weapons for the cultists: though this does depend on how much people want two entirely different elements in the list..in LatD i find that my uber short range forces me to engage more often :-)

MORE EDIT!: Also the mix of trucks and half track might prove a little confusing? Or maybe just fiddly!
R>
Author:  fredmans [ Sun Dec 20, 2009 1:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
Quote: (Man of kent @ Dec. 20 2009, 12:02 )

CC3 is a little too much for those cunning hybrids no? No way they're as good as howling banshees for example...? CC4 i'd argue.
R>

Greetings, Man of Kent. Good to see you are back. CC4+ is fine with me. It is the Ambush I am after. Whether Banshees are fine, I'll leave to the Eldar discussion   :p

/Fredmans
Author:  PANZERBUNNY [ Mon Dec 21, 2009 2:11 am ]
Post subject:  Genestealer Cult Uprising Army List
An idea I was tinkering with on paper, was the concept of "spheres of influence", instead of "waves" or how far along the cult is in its making.

So having the MAIN CULT sphere of influence, A Cultist Demonologist and a Cult Governor.

The main cult sphere gives you access to all the normal troop types. Genstealers, hybrids, brood brothers etc.
The Cult Demonologist gives you access to an array of chaos cultists and demons etc.
The Cult Governor is a planetary official that gives the Genestealer cult access to an array of planetary defense units and proper military gear.

It could be restricted so you can only take the main cult sphere and one other additional OR you can take an additional sphere depending on the point value of the game.

I think such a system would create a versatile list for a very unpredictable and insidious force. Creating custom options and interesting situations.
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