Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Tyranids and the Hive Mind

 Post subject: Tyranids and the Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Tyranids and the Hive Mind

Dependant on the programming of a Tyranid Creatures mind and the strength of the connection to the Hive Mind there are several different categories of independance and conectivity for Tyranids.

Synapse/DirectConnection
Synapse Creatures have a Direct Connection to the Hive Mind and project an area of influence where ANY Tyranid creature in range also earns a Direct Connection.
Synapse Creatures are (Synapse, which incorporates Fearless, ussualy with Ld 10):
Dominatrix
Hive Tyrant
Tyranid Prime
Tyranid Warrior
Winged Tyranid Warrior
Tervigon
Malanthrope
Zoanthrope
Trygon Prime
Any Tyranid Creatures in range of a Synapse earns a Direct Connection.

Very Strong Connection
These Tyranid Creatures have a Very Strong Connection to the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind can almost directly order them to do things and thus override any genetic programming or instinkts the Tyranid Creature might have.
Tyranid creatures with a Direct Connection are (Ld 10):
Lictor

Brood Telepathy
Some Tyranid Creatures have a psychic link to each other thus creating a mini Hive Mind of their own allowing them to act as one being and free from the actual Hive Mind but renders them more susceptible to succumb to battlefield situations.
Tyranid Creatures with Brood Telepathy are (Ld10 and Brood Telepathy):
Broodlord
Genestealer

No Self-Preservation Instincts
Some Tyranid Creatures are either so big or well protected that they just rampage through the enemy army because the combination of their urge to kill non-Tyranids and their instinctual knowledge of their superiority is far greater than their self-preservation instincts. Some also have a Very Strong or Strong Connection to the Hive Mind but usually this corresponds with their fearlessness and/or self-awareness and urge to kill.
Tyranid Creatures with No Self-Preservation Instincts are (Ld 7+ and Fearless):
Hierophant*
Hierodule*
Harridan*
Trygon
Mawloc
Carnifex
Tyranofex
Harpye*
Creatures marked with a * have a Very Strong Connection all others have only a Strong Connection)

Strong Connection
Some Tyranid Creatures have a Strong Connection to the Hive Mind. So most of the time the Hive Mind can override their Instictual Behaviour but it isn't infallible and so it needs a Synapse Creature in range for permanent full control.
Tyranid Creatures with a Strong Connection to the Hive Mind are (Ld 7):
Tyrant Guard
Hive Guard

Weak Connection
Some Tyranid Creatures have a Weak Connection to the Hive Mind and thus often need a Synapse Creature to do something desirable to the Hive Mind or they will succumb to their Instinctive Behaviour which will be usually to charge and attack the closest non-Tyranid or hide and shoot at the closest non-Tyranid from afar.
Tyranid Creatures with a Weak Connection are (Ld 6):
Termagant
Hormagaunt
Ravener
Gargoyle
Venomthrope
Pyrovore
Biovore

Mono-Task
Some Tyranid Creatures have programmed a Mono-Task in their genetic code. Usually this is just to attack anything non-Tyranid within reach. The reason for this can be that their brains are just to small for any complicated instictivual behaviour or that they have programmed an imperative in their brains that they are forced to carry out regardless of their surroundings.
Mono-Task Tyranid Creatures are (Ld 5 or less):
Ripper Swarm
Winged Ripper Swarm
Spore Mine

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Last edited by BlackLegion on Fri Oct 21, 2011 11:03 pm, edited 8 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 4:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9682
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Oct. 11 2009, 15:29 )

Tyranids and the Hive Mind

Dependant on the programming of a Tyranid Creatures mind and the strength of the connection to the Hive Mind there are several different categories of independance and conectivity for Tyranids.

Interesting and all... but why did you post this?

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 5:41 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
It's my own interpretation how the Hive Mind works. And perhabs this will help for the development of the Tyranid armylist specifically how each unit type behaves on an Epic level.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:58 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Tyranids and the Hive Mind Part 2

Severing of the Connection

So what happens if the connection to the Hive Mind is severed? And how can this happen?

Usually the highest Synapse Creature is the Norn Queen in the Tyranids Hive Fleet. She is directly connected to the Hive Mind and acts as something of a Supreme Commander of the Tyranid Swarms on the planet the Hive Fleet is invading. The Synapse Creatures on the planet itself are her Sub Commanders.
The Norn Queen, due to her position in high orbit can observe enemy troop positions and movement of the whole planet (at least the part she can "see" so usually there are more than one Norn Queens in a Hive Fleet) and coordinate planet wide Tyranid actions.
She receives the will of the Hive Mind and directs the orders directly to Tyranids on the planet. All Tyranids there can receive this orders dependant on the strength of their connection to the Hive Mind. While all Tyranids in a given area receive the orders they usually will be relayed through a Synapse Creature and thus the execution of the orders exactly to the Hive Minds desires will be guaranteed.

If all Norn Queens in the Hive Fleet are killed then the Synapse Creatures on the planet are now the direct link to the Hive Mind. But without the Norn Queen the Synapse Creatures on the planet have only limited awareness of Tyranid and enemy actions. While they might have psychic means of observing their surroundings, natural obstacles (eg mountains) will limit their area of awareness.
The effect is something like Field Officers having no contact to their headquarters. They are still able to carry out the will of the HQ but they can't coordinate planet wide actions.

Now the Tyranids are still an effective fighting force but lack coherent planet wide actions and thus can be ultimately beaten if their opponents are still able to coordinate planetwide actions.

So with Synapse Creatures like Hive Tyrants and Tyranid Warriors present a Tyranid Swarm is still an effective fighting force. Synapse Creatures are still able to directly carry out the will of the Hive Mind if only in the actual vicinity of the swarm.
If all Synapse Creatures are killed the Tyranid Swarm is in serious trouble as induvidual creatures and broods won't act every time to the will of the Hive Mind as their connection to it is seriously weakened.

Sometimes for Creatures with a Very Strong Connection to the Hive Mind it could be desired or nessecary to move them out of reach of a Synapse Creature as the Hive Mind sends Lictors, Harpyes and Harridans with pre-planned instructions far away. These creatures are genetically engineered to act as scouts and long range harrasment troops and thus are born with a Very Strong Connection to the Hive Mind which enables them to maintain this connection for most of the time even if out of the range of Synapse Creatures.

Creatures with Brood Telepathy like Genestealers can act as scouts and forward harassement too but can act more independantly from the Hive Mind as their intelligence and Brood Telepathy lets them override their instincts.

The actions of Creatures without Self-Preservation Instincts such as Hierophants or Carnifexi tend to be more out of synch with the Hive Minds desires as they continue to rampage throug enemy troops they encounter but laking focus and strategy in doing so. Ultimately such creatures can be lured away from the main body of a Swarm and killed one by one (still for a high cost because even alone such creatures are formidable foes) as their urge to kill tends to override the Hive Minds desires.

Mono-Task creatures as Ripper Swarms and Spore Mines will just continue as they are genetically programmed. Totally oblivious of the lack of the Hive Mind they are still a thread to non-Tyranids but easily picked off and killed.

Creratures with a Weak Connection to the Hive Mind as Termagants and Hormagaunts can still be directly controlled by the Hive Mind but they tend to charge and attack any non-Tyranid within reach or lurk and shoot at them out of hiding holes without any coordinated strategy as their Instincts override the Hive Minds desires. This their enemies can easily exploit. It's like in Starship Troopers where the marines herd the bugs together to shoot them easily into oblivion.

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Last edited by BlackLegion on Fri Oct 21, 2011 10:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:48 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
Interesting treatise, unsurprisingly there are things I agree with, but also things I disagree with.

Direct translations from 40k- Yes, the 40k rules can be used to some extent to determine how creatures act in the 40k background, but not always. Sometimes GW must throw in rules to make the models work in the 40k ruleset, contrary to their use in the background.

These include:

Zoanthropes with Synapse- this didn't used to exist. Admittedly they are very powerful psykers in the Nid army, so it seems logical they have a psychic link to the Hive Mind. Undecided on this one, if Zoanthropes are Synapse, it kind of makes Tyranid Warriors redundant, as the Zoanthrope is more heavily protected.

Biovores with Brood Telepathy- I don't think they have this, it's included in 40k because on the 40k table Biovores were often left behind when the Nid army moved forwards, with their poor Ld, this often meant they never fired having failed Instinctive Behaviour tests every turn. GW needed to plaster/bandaid this flaw in the rules, so chose to tack on Brood Telepathy.
In the background, Biovores don't strike me as cunning, intelligent and self-aware like Genestealers. They are dumb artillery beasts, just like the other workhorses led by Synapse creatures.

No Self-preservation Beasts- Again, Fearless is a very overused special rule in 40k. Monstrous Creatures seem to come with it as default.
I agree, big creatures like Carnifex seem to be like raging bulls- far more inclined to charge you than flee. But just like big animals, if startled or injured or faced with a bigger monster, they will scurry away like other non-Synapse creatures.

Weak/Strong Connection- I'm guessing this is tied to the better Ld values of Strong non-Synapse beasts in 40k. I agree with Gargoyles, they are intended to flock ahead of the main swarm, harassing defenders and to some extent highlighting their location (they're where the circling Gargoyles are) to the rest of the swarm.

Lictor- I don't think it can be directly tapped by the Hive Mind at all. It clearly states the Lictor leaves a pheromone/psychic trail for the Tyranids to follow as it instinctively seeks out the biggest groupings of prey. If the Hive Mind can 'view through it's eyes' and command it, there'd be no need for elaborate pheromone trails.

I don't tend to see the Hive Mind as some grizzled general, issuing orders and considering the battle plan. It's the most alien creation in the game (it's why Tyranids fascinate me).
The Hive Mind is likely not to be some dastardly moustached villain sat on one Hive Fleet, it's more likely the gestalt consciousness of all the Tyranid creatures- it's evolution on overdrive. I doubt the Hive Mind is self-aware on the level we are, it's more a supreme predator animal. If an action by the Tyranids can be explained by instinct or evolution it's probably more likely than conscious Dr Evil decisions.

I see the planetary invasion scenario as more instinctive.

Lictors/Genestealers land by spore/ Space Hulk boarded/ stowaways to an inhabited world. At this point they are not in contact with the Hive Mind in any meaningful way- at least not two-way.
The Lictor is more a long predator, stalking prey, following scents, seeking out concentrations of prey. If it finds very little, it will die and the Hive Fleet won't have wasted energy invading the planet. If it finds a lot, it will thrive, others will gather- the Hive Fleet will be attracted to the planet.
Genestealers do the same, except with an almost human level of cunning and manipulation, and a subversion/mutation of the host species.

Both creatures IMO are not fully aware of their role by the Hive Mind. They are a tool- scattered ahead of the Hive Fleet looking for inhabited planets.

It's very hard to describe the Hive Mind as I see it, as it's so alien- it's like trying to think how a shark thinks...

I see the Norn Queen in orbit sensing it's minions on the surface instinctively, seeing where the concentrations of prey are congregating and impelling scattered swarms on the surface to move towards it. But just like the Termagant, just like the Warrior, the Norn Queen is just another cog in the machine, just another biological tool for the consumption of worlds- it's role is to concentrate ground forces onto remaining prey species, it does this in the same way an animal does (by instinctive role) rather than through rational conscious decision.

Ants are capable of amazing works of construction, or scouring forests clean, of working in their thousands to carry food away, of amazing levels of co-operation and group work- none of it with any intelligent thought or planning. That's how the Tyranid work.

The problem with a Dr Evil leader is it personifies the enemy, it humanises them, it gives them the same emotions and weaknesses. The Tyranids are Cthulu in that they don't hate you, they don't even know you exist except as food- and even then not consciously with reasoning.

Best end on a positive- I agree with your views on disrupting the Tyranid advance and the levels of importance of Synapse Creatures, i.e.- Taking out the orbiting fleet will reduce the Nids to battalion/regiment level independent groupings, taking out the Dominatrix's will reduce the Nids to company level forces, taking out the Tyrants will reduce it to squad level forces, taking out the Warriors will leave it leaderless.

Oh, and whilst we're mentioning that Starship Troopers scene, I can't help but remember the Starship Troopers standing in a circle with high powered assault rifles and basically shooting at each other...





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 6:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Quote: 

Interesting treatise, unsurprisingly there are things I agree with, but also things I disagree with.

Direct translations from 40k- Yes, the 40k rules can be used to some extent to determine how creatures act in the 40k background, but not always. Sometimes GW must throw in rules to make the models work in the 40k ruleset, contrary to their use in the background.

These include:

Zoanthropes with Synapse- this didn't used to exist. Admittedly they are very powerful psykers in the Nid army, so it seems logical they have a psychic link to the Hive Mind. Undecided on this one, if Zoanthropes are Synapse, it kind of makes Tyranid Warriors redundant, as the Zoanthrope is more heavily protected.

Not really. Tyranid Warriors arer far more numerous than Zoantrophes.

Quote: 

Biovores with Brood Telepathy- I don't think they have this, it's included in 40k because on the 40k table Biovores were often left behind when the Nid army moved forwards, with their poor Ld, this often meant they never fired having failed Instinctive Behaviour tests every turn. GW needed to plaster/bandaid this flaw in the rules, so chose to tack on Brood Telepathy.
In the background, Biovores don't strike me as cunning, intelligent and self-aware like Genestealers. They are dumb artillery beasts, just like the other workhorses led by Synapse creatures.

Perhabs they really aren't dumb like, say, Gaunts but they are...well, cowards. Never read anything significant in fluff about Biovores. As artillery they should tend to stay behind and acton their own without a valuable Synapse Creature in vicinity to direct them. Synapse Creatures are front-line leaders. They don't belong to the artillery. So the artillery needs some more independence to act properly.

Quote: 

No Self-preservation Beasts- Again, Fearless is a very overused special rule in 40k. Monstrous Creatures seem to come with it as default.
I agree, big creatures like Carnifex seem to be like raging bulls- far more inclined to charge you than flee. But just like big animals, if startled or injured or faced with a bigger monster, they will scurry away like other non-Synapse creatures.

Perhabs but it is rare that something like a Hierophant will face something which is bigger. And Carnifexi and Hierodules are famed to rampage "like a raging bull" or worse. I don't think that any of this creatures will flee if they are actually in hand-to-claw combat even if treated with certain death until directly ordered to do so through a Synapse Creature.

Quote: 

Weak/Strong Connection- I'm guessing this is tied to the better Ld values of Strong non-Synapse beasts in 40k. I agree with Gargoyles, they are intended to flock ahead of the main swarm, harassing defenders and to some extent highlighting their location (they're where the circling Gargoyles are) to the rest of the swarm.[quote]
Harridans are essentially only bigger Gargoyles. And Raveners (where Trygons are just the bigger version)act in the same role as Gargoyles only without the "lure the swarm to prey"-part.

[quote]Lictor- I don't think it can be directly tapped by the Hive Mind at all. It clearly states the Lictor leaves a pheromone/psychic trail for the Tyranids to follow as it instinctively seeks out the biggest groupings of prey. If the Hive Mind can 'view through it's eyes' and command it, there'd be no need for elaborate pheromone trails.

Good point. So Lictors are pre-programmed to certain behaviours but to a more aggressive degree as Gaunts. So they would fall into the no self-preservation instinct group except that they actually HAVE a self-preservation instinct  :grinning: as they act much more cunningly. But still they won't flee headless from a superior foe but would retreat in a more resonable manner. Thats until actually engaged in hand-to-claw combat where their urge to kill will overcome them so that they will either win or be killed.

Quote: 

I don't tend to see the Hive Mind as some grizzled general, issuing orders and considering the battle plan. It's the most alien creation in the game (it's why Tyranids fascinate me).
The Hive Mind is likely not to be some dastardly moustached villain sat on one Hive Fleet, it's more likely the gestalt consciousness of all the Tyranid creatures- it's evolution on overdrive. I doubt the Hive Mind is self-aware on the level we are, it's more a supreme predator animal. If an action by the Tyranids can be explained by instinct or evolution it's probably more likely than conscious Dr Evil decisions.

True. The Hive Mind don't makes concious decisions as ahuman would. It has the same swelf-awarness and foreplanning as for example a pack of lions or wolfes.

Quote: 

I see the planetary invasion scenario as more instinctive.

Hmm yes and no. Predatory animals can plan in advance but usually will make ad-hoc decisions as the situation warrants.

Quote: 

Lictors/Genestealers land by spore/ Space Hulk boarded/ stowaways to an inhabited world. At this point they are not in contact with the Hive Mind in any meaningful way- at least not two-way.

Agree. They will act according to their genetically programmed imperatives.

Quote: 

The Lictor is more a long predator, stalking prey, following scents, seeking out concentrations of prey. If it finds very little, it will die and the Hive Fleet won't have wasted energy invading the planet. If it finds a lot, it will thrive, others will gather- the Hive Fleet will be attracted to the planet.
Genestealers do the same, except with an almost human level of cunning and manipulation, and a subversion/mutation of the host species.

Both creatures IMO are not fully aware of their role by the Hive Mind. They are a tool- scattered ahead of the Hive Fleet looking for inhabited planets.

Fully agree. I doubt that ANY Tyranid is aware of their role.

Quote: 

It's very hard to describe the Hive Mind as I see it, as it's so alien- it's like trying to think how a shark thinks...

I see the Norn Queen in orbit sensing it's minions on the surface instinctively, seeing where the concentrations of prey are congregating and impelling scattered swarms on the surface to move towards it. But just like the Termagant, just like the Warrior, the Norn Queen is just another cog in the machine, just another biological tool for the consumption of worlds- it's role is to concentrate ground forces onto remaining prey species, it does this in the same way an animal does (by instinctive role) rather than through rational conscious decision.

Fully agree.

Quote: 

Ants are capable of amazing works of construction, or scouring forests clean, of working in their thousands to carry food away, of amazing levels of co-operation and group work- none of it with any intelligent thought or planning. That's how the Tyranid work.

As a species yes but not always on an individual level. Hive Tyrants are rumoured to possess some level of self-awareness. And they need it to act properly to changing battlefield conditions. Instinct alone can't be the only means to victory. More often than not abstract thinking is also needed.

Quote: 

The problem with a Dr Evil leader is it personifies the enemy, it humanises them, it gives them the same emotions and weaknesses. The Tyranids are Cthulu in that they don't hate you, they don't even know you exist except as food- and even then not consciously with reasoning.

Agree. Even if a Hive Tyrand would have independent thoughts the might of the Hive Mind would crush them even bevore they would surface. While a Hive Tyrant can think he can't even think about thinking independant from the Hive Mind.

Quote: 

Best end on a positive- I agree with your views on disrupting the Tyranid advance and the levels of importance of Synapse Creatures, i.e.- Taking out the orbiting fleet will reduce the Nids to battalion/regiment level independent groupings, taking out the Dominatrix's will reduce the Nids to company level forces, taking out the Tyrants will reduce it to squad level forces, taking out the Warriors will leave it leaderless.

Thank you :)

Quote: 

Oh, and whilst we're mentioning that Starship Troopers scene, I can't help but remember the Starship Troopers standing in a circle with high powered assault rifles and basically shooting at each other...

Yes this is the scene i had in mind  :laugh:

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:42 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
Quote: 

Not really. Tyranid Warriors arer far more numerous than Zoantrophes.


That's kind of a chicken/egg answer, which came first.

If Zoanthropes were both better protected (with psychic shields) and able to direct the Tyranid Swarms with Synapse, then the Tyranid Hive Mind would spawn dozens of them, instead of dozens of Tyranid Warriors.
The question was rhetorical, clearly Warriors are still deemed to have a purpose, and Zoanthropes aren't as common. The only thing I can think of is that Warriors are more directly linked through Synapse.
Every creature that remains in a Tyranid army is the high point of it's evolution, it must do it's role better than anything else as it has adapted to this role the best- that is evolution.

Quote: 

Perhabs they really aren't dumb like, say, Gaunts but they are...well, cowards. Never read anything significant in fluff about Biovores. As artillery they should tend to stay behind and acton their own without a valuable Synapse Creature in vicinity to direct them. Synapse Creatures are front-line leaders. They don't belong to the artillery. So the artillery needs some more independence to act properly.


I get the feeling Biovores don't fire miles like Basilisks or Whirlwinds, but act more like field mortars firing several hundred metres across the battlefield.
I just don't see Biovores as great thinkers or strategists. I still think they'd need Synapse babysitters.
I think you give Brood beasts too much credit for independent thinking- bearing in mind that they should revert to animal instincts out of Synapse range- most beasts, Biovores included are more likely to wander around, lurk, search for food, etc than to direct co-ordinated and sustained artillery bombardments.

Quote: 

Perhabs but it is rare that something like a Hierophant will face something which is bigger. And Carnifexi and Hierodules are famed to rampage "like a raging bull" or worse. I don't think that any of this creatures will flee if they are actually in hand-to-claw combat even if treated with certain death until directly ordered to do so through a Synapse Creature.


I'll conceed the point on this one, I can see the larger beasts being evolved to be essentially permanently 'on steroids', testosterone, adrenaline and to be constantly aggressive- to the point their animal instinct is to attack rather than flee in almost all cases.
The true Bio-titans are a tricky one, as they are truly large enough to be Synapse led (like Dominatrix), it doesn't make any evolutionary sense for the biggest war machines of the Tyranid army not to be directly linked to the Hive Mind.

Quote: 

So Lictors are pre-programmed to certain behaviours but to a more aggressive degree as Gaunts. So they would fall into the no self-preservation instinct group except that they actually HAVE a self-preservation instinct   as they act much more cunningly. But still they won't flee headless from a superior foe but would retreat in a more resonable manner. Thats until actually engaged in hand-to-claw combat where their urge to kill will overcome them so that they will either win or be killed.


Aye, I'd put Lictors second only to Genestealers in their level of cunning, or animal intelligence (as opposed to when controlled by Synapse)- they will only attack when they believe the prey is isolated and weaker than them. They're role is to trail this prey to larger gatherings of it's kind to lead the Tyranid swarms. This requires incredibly stealth and trailing abilities.
I think they'd flee if the ambush didn't immediately go their way (didn't they have Hit-n-Run or similar once?), their aim when killing is to lure other prey out, some conjecture says they can absorb the prey's memories through consumption- their role isn't to hunt down the prey, that's what the following swarm is for. It is more important that they stay alive behind enemy lines and continue to trail enemy groupings and positions.

Quote: 

Hmm yes and no. Predatory animals can plan in advance but usually will make ad-hoc decisions as the situation warrants.


Tyranids don't seem to plan much, that's too human. Their invasions are not logistical campaigns, they are more like locusts, or a natural disaster.
For example, Tyranids will detect an enemy fortress via Lictors and direct other Tyranids to attack it- this is instinctive, reacting to stimuli from the Lictors.
Swarms, initially of Gaunts and Warriors will then frontal assault the fortress instinctively rushing at the enemy.
Either the wave assaults will overwhelm the fortress and the swarms will stampede onto the next target, or larger and larger beasts will be attracted to assault the fortress- again through instinct.
Other methods of insertion like Tunnelling and Harridans will be attracted if the fortress remains defiant. Essentially the longer it holds, the more Tyranids it attracts- much like the larger a pool of food, the more ants will trail to it.

If Tyranids planned ahead, they would go direct to the biggest creatures to storm the fortress, or lay siege to it.
Tyranids don't plan, from the lowliest Ripper Swarm attracted to rotting food on the ground, to the Hive Bio-ships being attracted to worlds by Lictor/Genestealer trails- they are all following biological imperatives with no sentient thought required.

That is what makes Tyranids scary, for all your technology and might, they- mere animals- will devour you without even understanding the horror of the act.

Quote: 

As a species yes but not always on an individual level. Hive Tyrants are rumoured to possess some level of self-awareness. And they need it to act properly to changing battlefield conditions. Instinct alone can't be the only means to victory. More often than not abstract thinking is also needed.


Tyranids don't think abstract though- they use hyper-evolution instead.
If there's a square hole, the IG Officer will think about it, plan, then send a square peg.
A Tyranid swarm will throw a thousand different pegs at the square hole, the pegs don't get through will die out, the pegs that do get through will be bred in the millions.
This is how all the Tyranid creatures have come to fill particular roles, and how they are still constantly evolving to changing battlefield conditions.

Tyranids work on numbers, they may lose many battles, but they will eventually win the war.

How about this compromise- the Hive Tyrant, rarely amongst Tyranid creatures can live for weeks, months or years depending on the campaign length- it also has intelligence similar to a dog or chimp, in that it can learn from positive/negative stimuli and use this in later similar incidents.
For example, a Hive Tyrant survives a battle where it faces a Predator Annihilator, it learns this creature is powerful as it kills a lot of Tyranids linked to the Tyrant (negative stimuli), until it is destroyed and the Tyranids swarm the defenders (positive stimuli). In future battles the Hive Tyrant will recognise the shape/noise/colours of the Predator Annihilator and urge it's swarm to destroy this first.
Repeating this for months may get a Tyrant that becomes disturbingly proficient at identifying the strongest enemy and eliminating them first- without any concept of abstract thought or planning.


I agree with the rest, I just tend to concentrate on the disagreements as this is where the best discussion inevitably is.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2008 9:32 pm
Posts: 2454
Location: Cardiff, wales
I'm liking this discussion.

Reconciling the instinct / alogorithim driven approach of the Tyranids to the experience driven approach of a wargamer is going to be tough.

I suppose it could reflect 'prodding' from the Hive Mind - not a concious decision, but the result of complex interplays between Synapse Density, battlefield phermones and the instinct to look for food.

Either way, the swarm of Gaunts suddenly gets the feeling there's more food over that hill and charges the artillery emplacement...

_________________
My shifting projects


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:18 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:15 am
Posts: 461
Location: UK
Quote: 

Reconciling the instinct / alogorithim driven approach of the Tyranids to the experience driven approach of a wargamer is going to be tough.


They tried to do just that in Battlefleet Gothic, Tyranid Fleet players have to go through a flow chart to determine actions, passing a Ld test let's them make their own decisions.

I don't think it's necessary. It's near imposssible to think like a gestalt consciousness of millions of non-sentient animals, nor is it particularly fun for most players to just run an auto-pilot program where they follow flow charts instead of getting to play the game.

I think this piece of background should stay in the background, it's one of those things that needs to be sacrificed in gameplay for enjoyments sake.

Current Synapse/Brood/Expendable/Non-scoring rules emulate it's effects adequately IMO.

Quote: 

I suppose it could reflect 'prodding' from the Hive Mind - not a concious decision, but the result of complex interplays between Synapse Density, battlefield phermones and the instinct to look for food.

Either way, the swarm of Gaunts suddenly gets the feeling there's more food over that hill and charges the artillery emplacement...


Definitely agree, I see the Hive Mind more as a network, or a communication system, there is no single Hive Mind sat on a ship twirling his dastardly moustache. The bigger creatures in it are the larger more powerful nodes, eliminating them disrupts the network, but there's always other Tyranid creatures to fill in eventually.

I also agree on the Gaunt analogy. The Norn Queen in orbit receives stimuli from creatures on the ground locating the larger groupings of prey, it then urges the Warriors/Tyrants that food is in 'that' direction, they then urge the lesser creatures around them with the same effect.
This is done impulsively on the parts of all creatures, I doubt they could even stop doing it (like you stopping your heart with your mind).


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 2:15 pm 
Purestrain
Purestrain

Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm
Posts: 9617
Location: Nashville, TN, USA
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Oct. 11 2009, 15:29 )

Synapse
Synapse Creatures have a Direct Connection to the Hive Mind and project an area of influence where ANY Tyranid creature in range also earns a Direct Connection.

I would say the idea of the hive mind as an external universal unconscious (to use Ja ungian term) is not correct.  The hive mind is made up of the Nids themselves.  Synapse creatures don't have a "direct connection" to the hive mind.  They are part of the hive mind.

_________________
Neal


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 4:50 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Sun May 24, 2009 9:50 am
Posts: 103
As the Tyranids themselves exist only in OUR collective minds, there is a sort-of irony here  :)





Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Quote: 

That's kind of a chicken/egg answer, which came first.

Not really. Iirc Zoantrophes where only encountered after Hove Fleet Kraken attacked the Iyanden Craftworld and they got hold of Eldar genes.

Quote: 

If Zoanthropes were both better protected (with psychic shields) and able to direct the Tyranid Swarms with Synapse, then the Tyranid Hive Mind would spawn dozens of them, instead of dozens of Tyranid Warriors.
The question was rhetorical, clearly Warriors are still deemed to have a purpose, and Zoanthropes aren't as common. The only thing I can think of is that Warriors are more directly linked through Synapse.
Every creature that remains in a Tyranid army is the high point of it's evolution, it must do it's role better than anything else as it has adapted to this role the best- that is evolution.

With this reasoning the Tyranids would only develope Synapse Creatures. Why create Gaunts without a link to the Hive Mind? Evolution would quickly create Gaunts wich are Synapses semselfe.
Answer: For the purpose Gaunts are used they don't need to be a Synapse semself (or have a Direct Connection) and imho it takes more energy/bio-mass to create advanced brains whith stronger connections to the Hive Mind.
Imho Zoantrophes are as rare as Hive Tyrants. Both are Psykers and Synapses but the Hive Tyrants braini smore tooled to be a leader/Synapse than a Psyker and the Zoantrophe is more tooled to be a Psyker instead of a Leader/Synapse.
In the "Hive War" supplement Tyrant Warriors are described as having a stronger link to the Hive Mind than Tyranid Warriors.

Quote: 

I get the feeling Biovores don't fire miles like Basilisks or Whirlwinds, but act more like field mortars firing several hundred metres across the battlefield.

True but Synapse range seems to be only a few dozent meters.

Quote: 

I just don't see Biovores as great thinkers or strategists.

They don't need to. They only need to "know" where the most valuable targets are.

Quote: 

I still think they'd need Synapse babysitters.
I think you give Brood beasts too much credit for independent thinking- bearing in mind that they should revert to animal instincts out of Synapse range- most beasts, Biovores included are more likely to wander around, lurk, search for food, etc than to direct co-ordinated and sustained artillery bombardments.

Well i don't see Biovores as "Brood beasts" in the same sence as Gaunts. They know they have apurpose: Provide close to mid range artillery coverage and to know which targets are most valuable to shoot at. Brood Telepathy helps to concentrate fire on the same target. And as Synapses tend to be closer to the front and Biovores and other bio-artillery more to the backof a given Swarm they need this kind of independend thinking or they will rather just lurk around as you have described.

Quote: 


The true Bio-titans are a tricky one, as they are truly large enough to be Synapse led (like Dominatrix), it doesn't make any evolutionary sense for the biggest war machines of the Tyranid army not to be directly linked to the Hive Mind.

I guess it is dependant on how much worth the Hive mind perceives those bigger creatures. If they are assault beasts not expected or even needeed to survive then they don`t need a direct link, just the mentioned agressiveness. Bio-titans could fall in this category. Even Hierophants don't need tactical knowledge. The Hive Mind in from of a Synapse just points it at a targed and the Hierophant will go and attack it. The Hierophant isn't nessecarily supposed to make its own decisions which target is the most valuable. If without Synapse it would simply attack the nearest or biggest one.

Quote: 

Aye, I'd put Lictors second only to Genestealers in their level of cunning, or animal intelligence (as opposed to when controlled by Synapse)- they will only attack when they believe the prey is isolated and weaker than them. They're role is to trail this prey to larger gatherings of it's kind to lead the Tyranid swarms. This requires incredibly stealth and trailing abilities.
I think they'd flee if the ambush didn't immediately go their way (didn't they have Hit-n-Run or similar once?), their aim when killing is to lure other prey out, some conjecture says they can absorb the prey's memories through consumption- their role isn't to hunt down the prey, that's what the following swarm is for. It is more important that they stay alive behind enemy lines and continue to trail enemy groupings and positions.

Agree.

Quote: 


Tyranids don't seem to plan much, that's too human. Their invasions are not logistical campaigns, they are more like locusts, or a natural disaster.
For example, Tyranids will detect an enemy fortress via Lictors and direct other Tyranids to attack it- this is instinctive, reacting to stimuli from the Lictors.
Swarms, initially of Gaunts and Warriors will then frontal assault the fortress instinctively rushing at the enemy.
Either the wave assaults will overwhelm the fortress and the swarms will stampede onto the next target, or larger and larger beasts will be attracted to assault the fortress- again through instinct.
Other methods of insertion like Tunnelling and Harridans will be attracted if the fortress remains defiant. Essentially the longer it holds, the more Tyranids it attracts- much like the larger a pool of food, the more ants will trail to it.

In essence i agree.

Quote: 

If Tyranids planned ahead, they would go direct to the biggest creatures to storm the fortress, or lay siege to it.

Not nessecarily. Tyranids won't blow up a fortress from orbit even if it is the easiest way to destoy it. Orbital Bombardment would destroy most of the bio-mass (ash or spliced up bio-matter to their molecular components isn't really useful to get knowledge of the genetic code from it).
And Tyranids can't know of the actual abilities of their target-prey. Yes Lictors can discern their positions and the type of species but not which weapons and defences they actual have.

Quote: 

Tyranids don't plan, from the lowliest Ripper Swarm attracted to rotting food on the ground, to the Hive Bio-ships being attracted to worlds by Lictor/Genestealer trails- they are all following biological imperatives with no sentient thought required.

True to a degree.

Quote: 

That is what makes Tyranids scary, for all your technology and might, they- mere animals- will devour you without even understanding the horror of the act.

True. To a part. NornQueens, Hive Tyrants and Dominatrixes might know how they can destroy opposition.

Quote: 

Tyranids don't think abstract though- they use hyper-evolution instead.
If there's a square hole, the IG Officer will think about it, plan, then send a square peg.
A Tyranid swarm will throw a thousand different pegs at the square hole, the pegs don't get through will die out, the pegs that do get through will be bred in the millions.
This is how all the Tyranid creatures have come to fill particular roles, and how they are still constantly evolving to changing battlefield conditions.

Tyranids work on numbers, they may lose many battles, but they will eventually win the war.

How about this compromise- the Hive Tyrant, rarely amongst Tyranid creatures can live for weeks, months or years depending on the campaign length- it also has intelligence similar to a dog or chimp, in that it can learn from positive/negative stimuli and use this in later similar incidents.
For example, a Hive Tyrant survives a battle where it faces a Predator Annihilator, it learns this creature is powerful as it kills a lot of Tyranids linked to the Tyrant (negative stimuli), until it is destroyed and the Tyranids swarm the defenders (positive stimuli). In future battles the Hive Tyrant will recognise the shape/noise/colours of the Predator Annihilator and urge it's swarm to destroy this first.
Repeating this for months may get a Tyrant that becomes disturbingly proficient at identifying the strongest enemy and eliminating them first- without any concept of abstract thought or planning.

Exactly. Individual creatures (at least Synapses) will learn given time. And their information will pass to the Hive Mind (at least after death when their bio-mass is recyceled). This is the reason how new genotypes of Tyranids spread out through different Hive Fleets and how the Tyranids adapt to new strategies and opponents.
With your example the Tyranids would first try known patterns of attack to overthrow opposition of this particular kind. If it doesn't work they will use new ways to overthrow them. And this new ways will come from independend thinking of Synapse Creatures.


Quote: 

I agree with the rest, I just tend to concentrate on the disagreements as this is where the best discussion inevitably is.

A good way of discussion  :D

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 5:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Quote: (nealhunt @ Oct. 13 2009, 15:15 )

Quote: (BlackLegion @ Oct. 11 2009, 15:29 )

Synapse
Synapse Creatures have a Direct Connection to the Hive Mind and project an area of influence where ANY Tyranid creature in range also earns a Direct Connection.

I would say the idea of the hive mind as an external universal unconscious (to use Ja ungian term) is not correct.  The hive mind is made up of the Nids themselves.  Synapse creatures don't have a "direct connection" to the hive mind.  They are part of the hive mind.

Well perhabs "connection to" is the wrong term. "Strongly/Weakly/etc part of the Hive Mind" or "Strong/Weak/etc part of the Hive Mind" might be more appropiate.




_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 2:43 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2005 12:13 am
Posts: 8709
Location: Leipzig, Germany, Europe, Sol III, Orion Arm, Milky Way, Local Group, Virgo Supercluster, Universe
Interesting but from someone who has read the new codex:

Quote: 

The book does however make it clear that the "Hive mind" is a singular entity that is controlling all of the hive fleets (even though each fleet is indipendent of each other and competes for resources), and that when each of the hive fleets are destroyed, some of the hive ships retreat so that the other fleets may absorb their experiences and learn about the tactics that where employed agaisnt them.


Source: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=239067

_________________
We are returned!
http://www.epic-wargaming.de/


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Tyranids and ther Hive Mind
PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2010 5:07 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:06 pm
Posts: 9682
Location: Boston, MA, USA
Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 10 2010, 13:43 )

Interesting but from someone who has read the new codex:

So, the Hive Mind is like some giant gamer with a bunch of armies trying to beat the galaxy... *LAUGH*

Looking forward to reading the new Codex... also a little scared.  *laugh*

_________________
"EPIC: Total War" Lead Developer

Now living in Boston... any EPIC players want to meet up?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 28 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net