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New Tyranids

 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:13 am 
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Quote: (Jeridian @ Jan. 21 2010, 03:30 )

If I recall correctly Marneus was leading the fleet in orbit in destroying the Tyranid Bio-ships,

Oh, Marneus does that too.

Each story of the different Hive Fleets seems to have a main "hero" and a main "villian"... though there's the small comfort that Inquisitor Kryptman never actually goes toe-to-toe with a Dominatrix or anything.   :whistle:

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:22 am 
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Narvhals... I mean... why.... namewise, fluffwise, conceptwise....why!
:ooooo:

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:04 am 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 19 2010, 00:08 )

Quote: (Ares @ Jan. 18 2010, 14:42 )

Hormagaunts laying eggs and senitent Hive Tyrants. I no longer like this new codex. At all.  :disagree:

Then you don't like the previous Codices too? Because this two fluff tidbits aren't new.

IIRC 2nd Edition Codex already talks about a planet infested with nothing but Hormagaunts.
And Hive Tyrants where intelligent Cads since then too.

Well, I know about hive fleet spin-offs, yes, and I don't dislike that part of the fluff. But they are spin-offs, tweaked Tyranids, mutants or anomalies, so to speak. I always saw Tyranids creatures as being assembled/grown i biofactories, akin to Wasp nests... Much scarier imo. And I don't resent seemingly intelligent Hive Tyrants as much as the notion of sentient ones... there's a subtle difference there, you know.

Did anyone watch the brilliant BBC series "Invasion Earth" that aired in 1998. The nD:s organic lair in a an alternate dimension was a good look at the nightmarish interior of a Hive Ship, I always thought. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion:_Earth_(TV_series)

But yeah, I leafed through the new codex yesterday, and "UGH" seems like a good response overall.  :disagree:

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:37 am 
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Quote: (blackhorizon @ Jan. 21 2010, 05:22 )

Narvhals... I mean... why.... namewise, fluffwise, conceptwise....why!
:ooooo:

Well perhabs the Warp exists only in our Galaxy? Without the Warp the Tyranids had to develop something else to move faster than the light.
And Narvahl fits. It's a bio-ship with wit horn-like things at the prow.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:02 pm 
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All indications are that the Warp is a parallel dimension and a phenomenon universal to the Warhammer universe. Making up excuses for it's rmeoval from the ficiton is just condoning the bad script writing that has obviously slipped into the new codex. The presence of the Warp is at the deepest core of the 40K fiction, the dark mirror image of the Force in the Star Wars universe, an underlying premise that tints everything in the setting an unsettling black. Start taking that away and the Warhammer sci-fi world crumbles apart into blandness.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:09 pm 
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Yes. In OUR Galaxy. No one knows what lies beyond.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:03 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ Jan. 21 2010, 07:12 )

But I must admit that this new codex seems to be wrecking Tyranids completely ...  :sad: .

all i'm going to say is one of my friends who has been into 40k for as long as i have (far to long a time to put a number up here) and has always been mad for nids is now not going to play them because of this new codex, as he puts it "it's too much!"  and i agree.

:laugh: and i don't use nids in epic myself so as you were  :grin:




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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Quote: (BlackLegion @ Jan. 21 2010, 11:09 )

Yes. In OUR Galaxy. No one knows what lies beyond.

Please address my point instead of merely repeating your own. Merely stating "outside of our galaxy, anything goes" is a cop out. I think it is lazy writing, and also detrimental to the entire setting. The 40K setting is built on the premise that there is no other way to achieve FTL travel than to use the Warp, a parallel dimension where time and space has no relation to ours. This catches the races of 40K squarely caught between the rock and a hard place, as they have to rely on the very things that invariably destroys them in order to build viable star spanning civilizations.

In order to become strong enough territorially to resist other star faring races, the life forms of the 40K universe have all used some form of warp travel. But all such civilizations have eventually upset the warp enough through their own expansion so as to have been annihilated by it themselves. The Old Ones and their ilk were wiped out not by their foes, but by warp phenomena. The Orks lost their psykers and are now remnants of what they once were, ruled by the destructive impulses radiated by those two most powerful and unrecognized chaos gods of the entire 40K setting, Gork and Mork. The Eldar... well, I hardly need to go into detail there do I? And mankind is killing itself with the draconian regime established by a psyker that tried nothing but to save his species. All these huge star spanning civilizations had enormous scientific knowledge and existed and expanded for tens of thousands of years, if not more. If there was another way to realize FTL travel, would it not seem consistent that they would have discovered this and thus could have dispensed with warp travel?

All of these examples shape the dark and tragical theme that makes 40K the stunning success it has been throughout the years. The concept is brilliant in its originality and over the years many writers have added to it, some more successfully than others. But the central nihilistic "mythos" of it is pretty clear to see, if one looks past the big guns, chains and skulls. And writing stuff that flat out contradicts this theme is detrimental to the whole fictional edifice.

Would you be kind enough to explain what you think the overall fiction gains by introducing optional FTL modes into the setting, and why? As you can see, I treat this as literary criticism, as we are discussing a work of literary fiction.




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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:34 pm 
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sorry say this but Necrons have had FTL drives in the fluff since the beginning  and are meant to be the very vulnerable to psychic and warp weapons and powers.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Thu Jan 21, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Quote: (Chroma @ Jan. 20 2010, 21:09 )

Okay, got a Codex, read a bit over lunch... UGH.

Just reading over the ret-conned First Tyrannic War stuff... man... the Swarmlord literally bellows a challenge to Marneus Calgar and meets him in personal combat... *UGH*!!!

I'll be going through the whole thing and see what we can assimilate, but, man, it really comes off as bizarre fan-fiction wankery so far.

There are older referances of nids hunting down enemy leader beasts.

It makes senses.  They exist in a society in which if the eader beasts are killed then the lesser beasts will do their own things,  They identified calgar as a major leader beast and send their own combat monster to deal with it (possible out of Lictors at he time).

Against Iyanden, when the swarm lord was challenged by the Avatar, he just sent in a dozen fexi to tear the thing apart.

It is possible that the nids have learnt the idea of heroics from the prey beasts.  It knows that they have this thing called honour and will accpet a challenge, so the swarm lords challenge of calgar was a calculated risk.  The hivemind believed that if its new commander issued a challenge then the prey things command beast would accept.

Against the Eldar the hivemind knew that the avatar was too powerful, since it was issuing the challenge, and it would lose an important hive synaptic nexus, so it refused with the swarmlord and sent in the heavies.

Ragnarok - Trying to make the swarm a little more faceless and alien.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:12 am 
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Quote: (Pulsar @ Jan. 21 2010, 19:34 )

sorry say this but Necrons have had FTL drives in the fluff since the beginning  and are meant to be the very vulnerable to psychic and warp weapons and powers.

Exactly what i intended to answer Ares.

Until Battlefleet Gothic i was under the impression that Tyranids don't use the Warp for interstellar travel.
There had to be a reason their bio-ships had to hibernate while on the way from system to system.

Introducing a means to travel without the use of the Warp (folding space) adds nothing surprising to me.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:32 am 
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I'm with you Ares, unfortunately 5th Ed 40k designers are not.

Necrons are an unfortunate thorn in the side- but that's pretty much true for most of their background, they've been shoe-horned/retconned into the most ridiculous places and events. The Necrons secretly bombed the Istvaan sites forcing Horus to claim responsibility for example...

Their FTL tech is supposedly Star Trek-like folding of space, and is because they really, really hate the Warp.

The Warp is and should be the most likely, easiest (relatively) method of space transport throughout the 40k universe. It is a dimension, not a location, so it exists everywhere 'under' the normal dimensions of reality.


ragnorak- I find that highly unlikely, if Hive Tyrants are intelligent it is in the way a Wolf is, stalking a prey and analysing when it is weakest to strike.
This idea that it has 'grown' honour and declares challenges to other Special Characters is a little too cringeworthy for me.

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Until Battlefleet Gothic i was under the impression that Tyranids don't use the Warp for interstellar travel.
There had to be a reason their bio-ships had to hibernate while on the way from system to system.



Because they travelled between galaxies- even in the Warp that takes a long time.
Because they are all about biological efficiency- evolving to the ultimate animal, a hibernating ship consumes far less energy than one where beasts are scurrying around in little play areas- even Warp travel takes months or years.


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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:20 am 
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This idea that it has 'grown' honour and declares challenges to other Special Characters is a little too cringeworthy for me.


It didn't "grown" honour. It uses the most effective weapon available. Against Calgar (just a human...obvioulsy it hadn't seen Matrix) it was the Swarmlord itself. Against the Avatar (a large beast) it used Carnifexes.

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 Post subject: New Tyranids
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:52 pm 
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Quote: (Jeridian @ Jan. 22 2010, 00:32 )

ragnorak- I find that highly unlikely, if Hive Tyrants are intelligent it is in the way a Wolf is, stalking a prey and analysing when it is weakest to strike.
This idea that it has 'grown' honour and declares challenges to other Special Characters is a little too cringeworthy for me.

It hasn't grown honour.  It has merely grown to understand it.

For example, we have grown to understand the pecking order in packs of primates, or wolves.  We know that if we make a big show of being bad ass, there is a good chance that the Alpha male will  try to attack us.  To prove to the others of its kind that it is the alpha male and can take on anything.

Just like the alpha male of a group of dirty apes.  Calgar had to prove his worth and accept the challenge.

On the Necrons.  I like how they are different from the other races of the galaxy.  Now what I am about to say will go, someway, against my earlier argument that folding space is wrong for nids.

The universe has several more dimensions that the 3 spatial and one time based on that we notice.  Next to or even on top of this universe is the warp.  A parallel universe of energy and emotion.

The old ones learnt how to harness his alternate universe, for all sorts of things.  Magik abilities, communication and travel.  They passed this on to the other races that they spawned/created.

The Necron (or whatever they were called before they became toasters) never noticed this other universe.  Instead they unlocked the secrets of ours, these extra dimensions that allow them faster than light travel TARDIS like structures and all the other tech they developed.

Now then the nids, who are not a creation of the old ones, could have developed either form of technology.  Since they are a massively psychic race, it seems reasonable that they should notice the warp and learn how to harness it.  Yet they seem to have found the technological version, using hidden dimensions, to travel FTL, yet they are the slowest FTL travellers (except maybe Tau).  Despite using the fastest technology.

Heck even the Q’Orl  have figured out a way to use the warp.

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