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| Rules Clarification - BTS http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15868 |
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
OK, in the middle of a fairly close game. It's been made clear that War Engines count their DC for purposes of total. My query, is do they count for fractions? Current situation at the end of Turn 3 (where my dice abandoned me), was my opponent starting with 3 Tyranid Warriors, 1 Vituperator (DC6), one Dominatrix (DC8). I killed the TW's, and have done 5 damage to the Vituperator. Have I achieved BTS (9 of potentially 17 BTS points), or do only fully killed Synapses count? Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 14 Jun. 2009, 03:59 ) My query, is do they count for fractions? Only the number killed vs the number remaining count... if the war engine isn't dead, it's still on the board; number of wounds remaining don't matter. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 5:49 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
I thought I answered this during our game   I am now going to call him "Bad Mood Morgan" !! Tomorrow we should get this game finished and a battle report shortly after. It is very close, I and Morgan have each made a serious tactical error, so it can still go either way... Cheers... |
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| Author: | Jeridian [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Well I've been playing that wrong. I was counting wounds, i.e. 4 wounds on a Dominatrix plus 4 dead Hive Tyrants gets my opponent the BTS. The sheer number of complex special rules in the Nid list is quite daunting for opponent and player alike. |
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| Author: | zombocom [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:34 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (Jeridian @ 14 Jun. 2009, 12:33 ) The sheer number of complex special rules in the Nid list is quite daunting for opponent and player alike. Definitely. One of my criteria for a good Epic list is that I should be able to turn up and play against an opponent who has never read this list without confusing them, i.e. I should be able to explain the various stats and special rules in the 5 minute warm-up. The 'nid list is way out of this range. |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 12:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (Jeridian @ 14 Jun. 2009, 12:33 ) The sheer number of complex special rules in the Nid list is quite daunting for opponent and player alike. "You have to kill half my Synapse creatures to get BTS" is daunting/confusing? A Warlord Titan with 1DC left doesn't count as destroyed for BTS, so why would non-destroyed things count for Tyranids? "Count their full starting DC" seems pretty self-explanatory and is the usual way war engine "value" is indicated, showing that they're still at "full power", even when damaged. The rule specifically says "killed"; a damaged war engine is never considered "killed". Tyranids are a "different" army, they're supposed to be alien and unusual. They are *not* a beginners army. I'm not saying they aren't complicated, but people often seem to "skim" the rules and jump to conclusions and then blame the rules. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:05 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
+1 Chroma You da Bomb! 
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| Author: | Morgan Vening [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 2:17 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (frogbear @ 14 Jun. 2009, 05:49 ) I thought I answered this during our game  I am now going to call him "Bad Mood Morgan" !! Tomorrow we should get this game finished and a battle report shortly after. It is very close, I and Morgan have each made a serious tactical error, so it can still go either way... Cheers... No, you gave your interpretation. Didn't mean it was correct. The listed rules were confusing regards WarMachines in the first place (in the above list, we initially considered it to be 5 Synapse, because it wasn't completely clear regards War Machine DC). I'm not fussed which way the ruling went. But it makes a difference for Turn 4 as to where priorities lie. If I'd already gotten BTS, I can do things one way. If I haven't, I do things another. I didn't want to go in blind. As for the interpretation, it's similar to a Titan in TieBreaker. Is a Warlord reduced to 1DC considered "reduced to half strength" or not? I can see it being interpreted either way. On the one hand, it's almost dead. On the other, it's still offensively fully functional. As Jeridan points out, I'm not the only one to find it interpretable a different way. And I've made more than one serious tactical error, thank you. At least three. Will probably cost me the game. Morgan Vening |
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| Author: | Jeridian [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:33 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
"You have to kill half my Synapse creatures to get BTS" is daunting/confusing? Except, you can get my BTS in a variety of ways, by killing a variety of units, in various formations across the board. Which misses my statement's point anyway. Any one complex Special Rule for an army is manageable (e.g. Space Marines and their 1 Special Rule- ATSKNF- which has a number of components). Nids have: -Spawning- a chapter in itself. -Ignore Difficult Terrain. -Synapse 15cm boundary. -How Brood/Synapse/Independent work in objective grabbing. -Brood expendable, except when not. -Engage and Rally bonuses. -Nid special BTS rule- which only affects opponent. -Nid Victory Points maths exam. -Tunnelling (although in rulebook, it's not in the core rules and hasn't been used in an official army- so it can count as a surprise for the opponent). It's just a whole host of special rules and exceptions to throw at a new opponent to confuse them. |
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| Author: | alakazam [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:48 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
I can see it from both sides as it took us several games to figure out how Nids work. The rules could be written slightly clearer in places, but overall they just about do the job (and who does not still get flumoxed by obscure situations in oter areas of the main/other army rules?). I totally agree with the 'maths exam' VPs comment. EDIT: just read it again and, though still a head scratcher, it makes a little more sense   |
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| Author: | Chroma [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 3:53 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (alakazam @ 14 Jun. 2009, 15:48 ) Do you just fill up complete clusters and see what you have lost after that, or do you somehow track which figure belongs where? It's right there in the rule: (Add the number of all killed Brood creatures of the same type together to determine how many Brood Groups worth of units have been destroyed, broken Brood Groups are not considered.) Personally, I'd like it if Brood creatures counted as *nothing* in Tie-breaker and Synapse counted *triple*, as, they're truly the most important part of the whole army. |
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| Author: | alakazam [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:00 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
As the Tyranid Special Rules have been mentioned a few times before, it seems there is a little bit of feeling amongst some that perhapse there are too many rules for the 'Nids. Though I think it adds a bit of flavour, perhapse you should just drop the 'fluid' broods rule, and then also drop the 'synapse range' rule as well (as it will not really be needed if the formaer goes). Dropping this rule gets rid of a fair few 'problem situations' of the Tyranid army. Just a thought. |
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| Author: | Jeridian [ Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:11 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Oh, the Nid VP Maths Test makes sense, but then so does Nuclear Physics when you read into it- and can still be hardass complicated though. |
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| Author: | frogbear [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Quote: (Morgan Vening @ 14 Jun. 2009, 14:17 ) As Jeridan points out, I'm not the only one to find it interpretable a different way. In this case, the rule is written there and is quite clear. It is not a matter of interpretation, it is a matter of reading the rules that are there and not skimming them and missing stuff. I am guilty of this as well, however IMO, the rule here is clear. The rule that needs to be re-written is the spawning rule. As for too many rules; Nids are an alien race apart from the humanoid races. They have a flavour of their own and I believe (currently within my 3rd game), that the current rules capture their uniqueness. I have found that each game with Tyranids is challenging, and against an opponent who is tactically sound in their decisions (Marines only so far I will admit), they provide real 'cliff hanger' endings that make the games enjoyable. Tyranids do need small tweaks (no ideas personally), yet at the moment, they need actual playtests and results with full and in-depth battle reports to clearly work out what needs to be changed. |
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| Author: | nealhunt [ Mon Jun 15, 2009 1:57 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Rules Clarification - BTS |
Back to the starting question, section 3.0 of the core rules states WEs count as a number of units equal to their original DC for most purposes (i.e. unless specifically noted otherwise) - outnumbering in assaults, # of attacks in assaults, BMs required to break/suppress, units required to pin, etc. - regardless of their remaining DC. WE Synapse for BTS is exactly in line with that. |
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