Tactical Command
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Tyranid Comments
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15677		 Page 1 of 4
Author:  alakazam [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
(reposted as Chroma wanted to discuss)

Comments on Tyranids:
This list gets a hell of a lot of models for the points (too cheap). The fact that the Synapse can be REALLY effectivly screened by RA biggies (that can respawn) makes them very difficult to get to. They are massively fast - 40cm assaults is huge (guants/genestealers). Some things seem to have a lot of MW attacks that most of the time cut the marines down to a man (6 stands vs one of those broods). The WE in particulr appear to be quite cheap considering the amount of damage they can soak (the 'scout' bio-titan at 275pts is a steal!).
Overall, the Tyranids appear to have little weaknesses - considering that AP fire is almost useless against them and you need AT fire to kill the synapse stuff (getting through the RA tanks first) means the amount of shots a Tyranid army recieves is small compared to other armies - less AT shots in an army, harder to hit AT shots, RA armour saves; all compound so you do minimal damage to a brood.
It is also our feeling that the big stuff should not be 'brood' creatures (by the lists definition) - being able to spawn them and them not counting for BMs (these being brood creatures detracts from the 'Tyranid Swarm' feel that there should be tons of little creatures overwealming you and you need to shoot big stuff so staunch them).
Author:  alakazam [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
As stated before, our Tyranid player is facing another players IG next week, so we will see how that goes and post comments again.

The main concern is that the "shoot the big stuff" approach to Tyranids just does not seem to work, at the moment (especially when the big stuff can respawn!)
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:42 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (alakazam @ 26 May 2009, 15:35 )

The main concern is that the "shoot the big stuff" approach to Tyranids just does not seem to work, at the moment (especially when the big stuff can respawn!)

If the Tyranids are in striking range of the enemy, i.e. within 30cm, they're only getting a D3 of spawn points... that's a max of a single "big stuff" unit returning, if they roll a 5 or a 6... so, 66% chance of not getting that.
Author:  alakazam [ Tue May 26, 2009 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Yes, we get that. The respawn was mentioned as it just compounds the problem - you pour AT shot after AT shot into a formation to try to get the Synapse, but all you really manage to do is kill a few Haruspex/Carnifex (my friend has RA big stuff in every formation). They then have a chance at respwning or simply running some more RA biggies over to the damaged formation and then spawning on an out of 30cms formation to get more big stuff. the problem, to us, reads thus:
1. Armies have less AT than AP (generally)
2. AT hits less often than AP (generally)
3. Only AT fire has any 'real' effect on a Tyranid Swarm, to try to kill Synapse
4. all the big stuff having RA stops what little AT fire gets through
5. spawning/fluid formations compounds the problem
6. the only effective way to stop the swarm becomes assaults - and this is the Tyranid forte!

We conceed that we dont know what the answer is (and, as said, we are new players to THIS ruleset so that obviously skews it somewhat). Perhapse remove RA from all Tyranid big stuff that is not a WE and make it easier to spawn? That way you get small windows of oppurtunity to try to destroy the synapse creatures at range.

The IG game will hopefully ally some of our fears about the Tyranid list.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
I really dislike being able to respawn biotitans.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (zombocom @ 26 May 2009, 16:25 )

I really dislike being able to respawn biotitans.

Bio-Titans can't be respawned.  

At most, a 3DC war engine can be respawend by a lucky, distant Dominatrix, or a single 2DC by a lucky distant swarm.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Bio-Titans can't be respawned.
A Heirodule is a Bio-Titan.

A small one, admittedly.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 26 May 2009, 16:29 )

A Heirodule is a Bio-Titan.

A small one, admittedly.

I have *never* seen the Heirodule referenced as a Bio-Titan after FW redefined it.

Is a Shadowsword a Titan as well?

You have to generate 9 Spawning points to bring back a single Hierodule... the enemy practically has to *let* you do it.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
By bio-titan, please assume i meant "war engine". I thought hierodules were bio-titans.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (zombocom @ 26 May 2009, 16:41 )

By bio-titan, please assume i meant "war engine". I thought hierodules were bio-titans.

Only a Dominatrix can bring back a Hierodule... She is the "Big Momma" of the swarm.
Author:  Evil and Chaos [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
I've always considered them Bio-Titans, because they were big and gribbly.

Is a Shadowsword a Titan as well?
No but a Warhound Titan is.
Author:  Carrington [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (alakazam @ 26 May 2009, 15:51 )

Yes, we get that. The respawn was mentioned as it just compounds the problem - you pour AT shot after AT shot into a formation to try to get the Synapse, but all you really manage to do is kill a few Haruspex/Carnifex (my friend has RA big stuff in every formation). They then have a chance at respwning or simply running some more RA biggies over to the damaged formation and then spawning on an out of 30cms formation to get more big stuff. the problem, to us, reads thus:
1. Armies have less AT than AP (generally)
2. AT hits less often than AP (generally)
3. Only AT fire has any 'real' effect on a Tyranid Swarm, to try to kill Synapse
4. all the big stuff having RA stops what little AT fire gets through
5. spawning/fluid formations compounds the problem
6. the only effective way to stop the swarm becomes assaults - and this is the Tyranid forte!

We conceed that we dont know what the answer is (and, as said, we are new players to THIS ruleset so that obviously skews it somewhat). Perhapse remove RA from all Tyranid big stuff that is not a WE and make it easier to spawn? That way you get small windows of oppurtunity to try to destroy the synapse creatures at range.

The IG game will hopefully ally some of our fears about the Tyranid list.


One thought on the 'nid list 9.2.1 and the LV kludge: perhaps a better response to the "shoot the big ones" issue would be to allow the opposing player to designate 10% (or some such number) of his stands as having a "sniper" ability vs. Tyranids.

Good points.. but note two points that make the 'nids more vulnerable:
1) FF engagements -- 'nids are relatively weak vs. FF... use it strategically to break formations.
2) clipping 'assaults' and better, clipping FF attacks can maximize the chance of breaking a formation

FWIW Marines and Eldar aren't really 'shooter' armies, for the most part.. rather they are engagement/firefight armies, with Marine armor and TSKNF providing staying power, while Eldar Shoot n scoot allowing them to trade space for casualties.

Imperials will be a very different ball-game: much more concentrated on putting firepower downrange.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (Evil and Chaos @ 26 May 2009, 16:47 )

I've always considered them Bio-Titans, because they were big and gribbly.

Is a Shadowsword a Titan as well?

No but a Warhound Titan is.
Yeah, but what's the difference?

A Hierodule is just a big bug... since Bio-Titans have more DC than their Imperial counterparts, a Hierodule is just an "enhanced" armoured vehicle... like a Shadowsword.
Author:  zombocom [ Tue May 26, 2009 4:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Either way, the spawning of war engines is gamey. For example, here's something E&C pointed out.

Imagine a hierodule that is down to 1 DC left and out of position. Its formation has the last activation of the turn, so the player decides to move the hierodule off on its own so it dies, then respawn it at full strength in the front lines, in another formation on the other side of the board.

Tell me that's not gamey...

The necrons have a rule that units can only be brought back to their own formation specifically to avoid this.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 26, 2009 5:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Tyranid Comments
Quote: (zombocom @ 26 May 2009, 16:54 )

Tell me that's not gamey...

That's a pretty contrived situation... and has inherent risks... and can *only* occur if there's a Dominatrix on the board that has no enemies within 30cm... and she *still* has to roll max spawn points to get it to work; so it can't actually happen "in the front lines" at all.

If that's your main issue with spawning war engines, you've got little to worry about.  In any of my recent games with the v9.2.1 rules, I don't believe a Hierodule has ever "come back".

And it's no more "gamey" than marching a single unit deep into enemy territory to capture the Blitz as your last activation, because you know there's no risk to it since it ends the game.  We *are* playing a game here, and wierd things can crop up.
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