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Splinter Fleet Churoninx

 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 1:30 am 
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I'd best try to be inoffensive this time around.

I'm working on a variant Nid list for personal use only...okay, I'll be honest, I'm looking to harvest 99% of the great work present in the V9 Nid lists produced here, with the deserved acknowledgements, reverance and head bowing of course, mix it with my own personal spin and play it.
When it boils down to the tabletop, with each gaming group it is you and the guy across from you that are there- and aim to enjoy the game, so house rules, and indeed, house lists will eventually worm in.

So where am I going with this? Well, Tactical Command is a great resource of knowledgeable Epic Nid players, as much as the v9.2 Light Vehicle nerf grates, it has a lot of other new and good ideas- like giving Zoanthropes a purpose, adding the Tunneler dimension, and so on. I'll always come back for ideas and inspirations, and when the Nid list is formalised I'm likely to field it at tournaments, etc.

I'm basically looking for fresh set's of eyes, opinions, critique and interest on items I'll propose below. You don't have to like them, you don't have to use them in your own games- even a simple "Well, your rule X will cause loophole Y" will be very helpful.

So, first of all the core changes I've made, my most memorised version is v9.1, but hopefully I've remembered v9.2 well enough. So if I regurgitate an idea already mentioned in v9.2 without citing it as the source, it's not plagiarism, it's the worst kind of memory (remembering enough to use it, but not to credit it).

Hmm.

Special Rules

Synapse- I've tried to make the wording easier on the eye, but it's very difficult, the effect is the same.

Relentless- I've stuck with +1 for now, +2 means guaranteed actions even when Blast markered and I'm not a fan of that. Orks get +2, but then their initiative 3+, so...

Spawning- I've worded it a bit differently, to the effect that you pick a formation, roll to remove Blast markers, roll for Spawning, move onto next formation, roll to remove..etc. Not sure why, I just wanted to word the rule in a shorter way and this is how it came out. In-game effect, well, it forces the Nid player to decide what Spawning units he wants to add to formation X before he moves onto formation Y, is this good or bad?

I also reversed the spawn modifier for being within 30cm of the enemy, so you get +D3 for being within 30, not -D3. I just found the idea that the Nid player would try to keep out of 30 to improve his spawning, whilst the opponent tried to chase the Nid player into range a little counter-intuitive of the fluff.

Finally I've added that you can respawn Damage Capacity wounds on a living war engine in the synapse swarm.

Without Number- Basically the Gaunt special rule for 1/2 Assault casualty modifier included in v9.2. Clarified that the number is rounded up (i.e. in the opponent's benefit). Just so I could put 'Without Number' in the Termagant and Hormagaunt unit entry instead of repeating the full special rule. I've tried to cluster all the Special Rules in the Nid Special rule section, so it can be added to new units if the list is added to, updated, etc, but also so they're all in one place.

Stampede- Again, just the Mobility rule, but with a -5cm move penalty for terrain. I felt there should be some penalty for moving through terrain, just not as severe or as time-consuming as Dangerous Terrain tests. So I can imagine a Carnifex battering it's way through a forest, being slowed by the tree stomping but not accidentally tipped like a Battle Tank.


Tyranid Units

Tyranid Warriors- Infantry. Best if we don't go into it.

Lictors- Infantry. I really like the non-scoring rule from v9.2, so I've given them that. I think being non-scoring removes a lot of the power of Lictors to just pop-up on the enemy Blitz and laugh. And that was needed, I agree, they where too good before.

Heirophant- I haven't given them Inspiring yet, I feel these are the best units in the Nid list, 9.1 and 2. I felt so strongly I even gave them a pts hike to 300pts. They have the resilience, the firepower, the combat brutality and the ability to capture objectives that a lot of the Nid army list lacks- alongside a Reaver in a Guard army they'd be pants, but within the Nid list, they fill a desperately needed niche.

Hydraphant- Can't see what to do with these TBH. Packing decent ranged weapons, the Heirophant does the job better. I've upped the Hydraphant to 10wounds, I figured it's supposed to be the Warlord equivalent, and since a Warlord has 14 hits to chew through it seemed fair. A small pts hike to compensate.

Meiotic Spore Sacs- Well I let them March, and gave them Scout. I can't see why anyone would take them before. For the same price and spot as 3 Lictors. They just couldn't cover enough area to be useful as AA, and if anyone was relying on Aircraft, it's ridiculously easy to bring down 6 LVs.
Scout let them spread out over a large area, March let's them move and amazingly fast 30cm a turn (and for this they lose AA cover).
Worst abuses I can see are Spore Mines somehow moving close enough to a static firepower unit to force it to move out of their Scout z of c. Also denying large areas to the enemy.
Well, shucks, it's almost as if their a floating minefield of acid bombs. Considering the competition for space they have against Lictors and Heirophants, I think giving them a viable use as area denial weapons is well worth it.

I haven't got around to fiddling with much of the units, I know a fair few monsters got faster, which I think is a good idea as I'm struggling to find roles for them all (more on that later).

Goes without saying I applaud the Termie/Hormie 1/2 Assault casualty modifier rule.

I also wholeheartedly adopted the Hormie 2 5+ cc attacks. Very Hormgaunty to have a handful of slighly inaccurate cc dice, leave highly accurate fewer first strike dice to the Genies where they belong.

So it's very much a work-in-progress, and still 99% Tactical Command grown.

If, and I'd be amazed, anyone has kept interest to read this far, I want to delve into the roles of some of the Armoured Vehicles- namely the Carnifex, Haruspex, Malefactor.

Haruspex and Malefactor- competing for the same spot, same cost. The Haruspex is superior in nearly every way, I don't get why the Malefactor is expensive.
The Malefactor gets an incredibly short-range infantry gun, for this the Haruspex gets much better armour, 2 MW CC attacks in 3+. I can possibly see a Malefactor being used in Supporting Fire, but it's just better to take the Haruspex and better repel incoming damage in it's main job, bullet shield.

The Malefactor was a transport once upon a time right? Can it not be given a better role, or at least not be pt for pt competing with a Haruspex?

Haruspex and Carnifex- clearly, the Haru is the Carni's big brother, perhaps this is the intention. The Carni can garrison, and is cheaper, so I can't really argue this one. The Carnie being less resilient than a Hive Tyrant is a bit counter-intuitive though, 4+ re-roll better than 3+.


I really should cut this rant at some point, so thanks for reading and I look forward to your replies.


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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:05 pm 
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Quote: (Jeridian @ 22 Apr. 2009, 01:30 )

I also reversed the spawn modifier for being within 30cm of the enemy, so you get +D3 for being within 30, not -D3. I just found the idea that the Nid player would try to keep out of 30 to improve his spawning, whilst the opponent tried to chase the Nid player into range a little counter-intuitive of the fluff.

I still don't think I've seen this tested in any meaningful way, which is something I'd really like to see.

From a 'game play' standpoint, I can't see many opponents being happy to see two Carnifex "appear out of nowhere" near their formations.

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:26 pm 
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Thanks for the replies.

Spawning
Does this affect anything in game in reality (the order)? I don't see it affecting the choice on what is spawned. If the wording is better, then it might be worthwile thing. Could you post the actual wording, please.


In hindsight it isn't that much clearer:

Spawning allows Brood creatures that have been destroyed, removed from play, or held in reserve to return to play. For any formation that includes Synapse units, when a Tyranid player regroups (i.e. for a Marshal or Hold action, and in the End Phase), immediately after removing Blast markers they can roll for Spawning.

Roll 1D3 for the formation, adding or removing a number of D3 according to the below modifiers:
• Formation contains a Dominatrix +1D3
• Any unit of the formation is within 30cm of an enemy unit. +1D3
• Formation is Broken. -1D3

The total is the number of Spawning points the Tyranid player may use to add Brood creatures to the formation.
Each Brood unit will have a Spawning points number in the unit entry (SP), simply expend the necessary Spawning points to add the Brood unit to the formation, placing it anywhere within 5cm of a Synapse unit in the formation.

These added Brood units must come from either Brood units that have been destroyed or removed from the board already, or from Brood units you have chosen to keep in Reserve for this purpose. If there are no Brood units available, the Spawning points are wasted. If you choose not to use the Spawning points, they cannot be hoarded for later attempts and so are wasted.

In the case of Brood war engines the Spawning points number listed in the unit entry is that required to regain a single point of Damage Capacity, a war engine can only regain a number of Damage Capacity points equal to its starting capacity.
In order to return a destroyed Brood war engine to play you must bring it back at full Damage Capacity, and so must spend enough Spawning points to bring back all of its Damage Capacity points.

A Broken formation that gains Brood units remains Broken as normal until it passes a Rally test.


About the 30cm thing. The point in that is that enemy will kill stragglers as they come near them (they would try to attack the moving enemy anyway instead of trying to hide). Also while I see the aim there is, the Epic is bigger battle. It merely means that Synapse creatures fall back a bit to amass a new wave to assault. So it's not like they are merely stepping out for a sec and then coming back (even though the in game effect is just that)

I guess we can always find fluff arguments for either side of a rules argument. I see the battlefield as being littered with the lesser Nid beasts, cowering in terrain. Only when Synapse creatures scent a close-by enemy will they send out psychic calls to gather these wayward beasts to attack- an instinctive psychic warcry.

Also it does create a "problem" for Tyranids. Do I fall back to get more units but have harder chance to engage or close in for a kill which can then backfire.

Aye, when you put it that way- it does have downsides. Mainly for horde formations like Gaunts that need Engagements, gun-formations like Heirodules can just stay back and pop away.

With the need to be in 30cm, there is far more 'problems' for the Nid player (by problems, I think we mean tough decisions, and so the more the better).
If you stay within 30cm, it's harder for you to Rally or regroup Broken formations. If you stay within 30cm (especially with SR1), your broken, damaged formations are at high risk of being badly mauled.

I think the key style that comes out of it is that the Nid player for better or worse is always trying to close with the enemy, while the enemy is always trying to stay at arm's reach.



Game-wise I found it better to stay out of 30cm with Nids, especially my Heirodule/Dominatrix formation. By staying outside 30cm, I can respawn much easier, holding objectives and taking potshots at the enemy. Counter-intuitively, it is the enemy that must close with the Nids not the Nids with the enemy to diminish spawning.

The problem that I see in this is that walker was there to make the units be able to move through terrain. Mobility was added to remove rolling and not penalise the LV changes. What you suggest is in a way worse than having Walker. It's very unlikely that walker unit would be hit, however this rule will penalise all units using it. In all my games of Epic, I think I've seen once or twice the 'move 5cm to avoid difficult terrain test' being used. This is near that but not quite that bad so for example with Carni it's most likely worse than just taking the test and moving full speed.


Our group must be a real freak show, hehe, I use the 5cm re-roll religiously, admittedly with tanks that aren't walker- but I've had way too many bad rolls and lost tanks not to be cautious around terrain.

I think Walker is the best rule from an intuitive POV, but I agree with the v9.2 that it just isn't practical when you have to roll individual for half a dozen formations with half a dozen Walkers in.
I just felt a blanket immunity to terrain was a bit to powerful, so felt some downside is necessary.

So the options are Immunity to Terrain or some penalty (-5cm to each move), Walker is my first choice but is too much dice-rolling.

Hierophant
Did you notice the 5+RA save. That does make an impact to list. Note that Harridan can also be used as fast weapons platform.

Hydraphant
I would suggest in trying it out. I've always though it to be lot worse than Hiero, but the 5+RA save does change things a bit.


I had not, as I said I've a firm grasp of 9.1, but I really need to pluck up the energy to really read 9.2 in more detail.

5+ RA does go some way to make the Heirophant interesting.

Malefactor. Yes it had transport. However one of the comments of JJ was no transports and frankly it makes sense. Where does the units go in it? To me it always used to be iffy the transport concept. Also it helps to separate Nids from rest by lacking those transports. I would like to get the Malefactor back to 4+RA and possibly stick with 20cm move.

I've always though that Tyrant should go back to 3+ and Inv on save front

All power to JJ, Epic is his best work IMO. But I think the GW Gods deserted us long ago, sticking to scripture may not cut it.
Where do they go? In it's mouth, in various pouches, within a hollow turtle-like shell, just look to nature for examples.

Lacking transports paradoxically makes the Nids one of the slowest armies.
My Guard Mech Co can move 95cm if needed, a similar Gaunt brood can manage 60cm.

I've always though that Tyrant should go back to 3+ and Inv on save front

Interesting, would require a pts mess about, but no-way is a Tyrant tougher than a Carnifex.


From a 'game play' standpoint, I can't see many opponents being happy to see two Carnifex "appear out of nowhere" near their formations.

TBH, seeing these big beasts 'appear from nowhere' anywhere on the board gets raised eyebrows from some opponents.
When you can raise 3 Gaunts or a Carnifex, you generally pick the Carnifex. This is an issue with the Spawning rule in any version.

I still don't think I've seen this tested in any meaningful way, which is something I'd really like to see.


I'll hopefully get a Nid game next week.

Thanks again for the input.

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:32 am 
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Interesting, would require a pts mess about, but no-way is a Tyrant tougher than a Carnifex.


In Wh40k both have the same number of Wounds, Thoughness and Save.
Both can get a better save.
The Carnifex can get better Toughness, one more Wound and Regeneration.
BUT the Hive Tyrant can get up to 3 Tyrant Guards, each with half the Wounds of the Hive Tyrant. The Epic unit represents a Hive Tyrant with Tyrant Guards.

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:38 am 
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I made the mistake of thinking a 'Hive Tyrant' unit represented a Hive Tyrant unit.

If it does indeed include putting some Tyrant Guard models on the unit base, then I'll readily conceed the 'Hive Tyrant + Tyrant Guard' unit should be a better armour save than just a lone Carnifex?
But can Tyrant Guard, guard any monster in 40k, so how do we know the Carnifex doesn't have some of these invisible protectors,  :vD


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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:45 am 
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Tyrant Guards are only for the Tyrant :)

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:46 am 
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Not to be rude, but where does it say in the Epic Nid list that the 'Hive Tyrant' unit represents Tyrant and Tyrant Guard?
Is it in v9.2 that I'm not as familiar with?


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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:58 am 
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It was only mentioned as the design philosophy behind the Tyrants stats.
Personally i would allow a upgrade of 1-3 Tyrant Guards as LightVehicles with Expendable if the formation contains a Hive Tyrant.
But then: there are no models for them.




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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:32 pm 
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It was only mentioned as the design philosophy behind the Tyrants stats.


Then how is someone supposed to know when they pick up the Nid list- if it ain't written, it doesn't count I'm afraid.

At present the Hive Tyrant unit entry represents just that, I like the idea of Tyrant Guard- but I think they would be an addition to the base rather than a separate unit.

So your comment that the Hive Tyrant unit represent Tyrant with Guards, hence it is better armoured than a lone Carnifex has merit, is justifiable...but isn't written down.

But then: there are no models for them.

Looking on the GW website, there are no models for any of the Nid list. I wouldn't let GW lack of support stifle creativity.

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:46 pm 
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v9.2.1 list I've grudgingly managed to squeeze out, sadly I don't have all the models for it, so will proxy- but not doubt by 9.3 the popular units would have flip-flopped back again so no need to buy/build.

-Dominatrix- with Barbed Heirodule.

-Hive Tyrant- 3xCarnies. 1xGargoyles.

-Hive Tyrant- 3xCarnies. 1xGargoyles.

-3xTyranid Warriors- 2xZoanthropes.4xRaveners. 16xTermagants. 2xGargoyles.

-Synapse Node.

-Lictors. x3

-Heirophant.

-Heirophant.

-Heirophant.

3000pts


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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:45 pm 
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Having sat down a bit longer with v9.2.1 here's my list using it at present:

Dominatrix- 2xBarbed Heirodules. 2xGargoyles.

Hive Tyrant- 3xCarnifex. 1xGargoyles.

Hive Tyrant (Winged)- 8xGargoyles. 16xTermagants. 2xExocrines. 4xRaveners.

Synapse Node- 1xGargoyles.

Heirophant.

Heirophant.

Lictors- x3


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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:50 pm 
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Quote: (Jeridian @ 27 Apr. 2009, 16:45 )

Synapse Node- 1xGargoyles.

What's the point of taking this?  Wouldn't it be better to put Dactylis on it instead of the Exocrine in the other swarm?

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 Post subject: Splinter Fleet Churoninx
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2009 6:17 pm 
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Quote: (Hena @ 27 Apr. 2009, 18:04 )

AA, I think.

With a *single* Gargoyle unit on it?!  Doesn't seem worth it at all...

*Maybe* as a "spawning pool" for the backfield, guarding the Blitz.

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