Tactical Command
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Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
http://www.tacticalwargames.net/taccmd/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=15337		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  arkturas [ Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Just an idea that the spawning mechanic could be used to restore lost DC, 2 or 3 spawning points spent per DC point restored. Just allow the Bio-Titans to make spawning rolls that can be used for regen only.

Musings on larger titans led me to speculate that under current increased DC design philosophy a Warlord Class Bio-Titan ("Tyranaphant") would have ~12DC and an Emperor Class Bio-Titan ("Titanaphant") would have ~18DC (Based on Bio-Titans having a DC one class higher than Imperial Titans (AMTL, 3/6/8/12) and approximately equal to Ork Gargants (OGBB, 4/8/12/18)).

Something to consider when looking forward to a Bio-Titan list and whether very high DC's are acceptable. (Personally of the 3 Titan lists with Mega-Titans I'd only consider the Mega-Gargant unbalanced due to its very high number of MW and TK weapons, not DC, and it's not in the main list like the other 2 mega titans (AMTL Imperator/Warmonger and Lugganath Magnate)
Author:  Jeridian [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:34 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
I like the idea, it may be very tricky to implement in practice though as an Independent Bio-titan is not part of a Synapse Swarm. It would require additional rules that allow a nearby Synapse Swarm to 'Invoc' DC back onto the Bio-Titan.

Where I think it has merit is in War Engines that are part of Synapse Swarms and are currently resurrectable.
Take the Barbed Heirodule- you could make it heal a DC on a 2, but stipulate that if you want to bring back a dead one, it must be brought back full-wounded.
I.e. my opponent pings a DC of my living Heirodule, I roll Spawning and use 2 to heal it up. My opponent than kills me Heirophant outright, I need a 6 to respawn it.

This may encourage you to protect these War Engines more, as it's viable to regen a living War Engine, but very costly if nigh impossible to raise a dead one.
Author:  arkturas [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Well yes, implementing regen on WE in synapse swarms is straight forward (Hierodules, Trygons and Dominatrix).

Other Bio-Titans would need a rule. Either
1) Bio-titans can make a spawning roll but only use spawning points to restore lost DC (3 per DC)
2) Synapse swarms can restore lost DC to a Bio-Titan within 15cm of a synapse creature (3 per DC)

I'm looking forward (a long way) to a potential Bio-Titan themed list.
a) Are DC12+ and DC18+ Bio-Titans acceptable in the 800pt and 1200pt brackets?
b) Would lower DC values with regen be better?
c) If regen is implemented for larger Bio-Titans how would that impact on the current Bio-Titans?

The current list guides future variants and that means larger Bio-Titans have increasingly larger DC's.
Author:  Soren [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:09 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
I loved regeneration :) Was a cool and fluffy rule  :sigh:
Author:  Jeridian [ Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Hehe, so was a flamer shaped spray of acid, but all must eventually fall for the glory of 'streamlining'.
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:10 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
In a previous version of this list Bio-Titans could regen DC in the same way as Imperial Titans Void Shields with a Marshall action.
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:17 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Quote: (BlackLegion @ 23 Apr. 2009, 00:10 )

In a previous version of this list Bio-Titans could regen DC in the same way as Imperial Titans Void Shields with a Marshall action.

What version had that?!
Author:  BlackLegion [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 12:36 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Uuh...very early back in the first SG-Forum iirc. Version 3 or so? I remember someone answering about this proposal as "Very genius and elegant to use the same mechanism."

Buti only stated it for reference. It seems to powerful to me.
Author:  arkturas [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:35 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Quote: (Hena @ 22 Apr. 2009, 15:19 )

I wouldn't want to see 12 or 18DC biotitans :smile:. Regen was removed to cut down on rolling in end phase. It just made thing simpler.

The current direction would lead to 12DC and 18DC Bio-Titans. I know I wouldn't like to be on the receiving end of them but if there is to be a Bio-titan themed list then larger titans are needed.

Regen as part of the spawning process streamlines the nid list compared to void shield like regen so cutting down on the end phase rolling isn't really a problem anymore unless spawning is also viewed as too time consuming.

So make a choice for how you feel future large Bio-titans should be built
a) 12DC and 18DC
b) Lower DC with regen
c) Something else (ideas would be useful)
Author:  Chroma [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:41 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Quote: (arkturas @ 23 Apr. 2009, 14:35 )

c) Something else (ideas would be useful)

I think, in a "Bio-Titan List" you'd have more room for "upgrades", so you could include a "Symbiotic Healing Nodule" as an upgrade that would grant regeneration to the Bio-Titan it was bought for, or "Enhanced Growth Factors" to give it more DC, etc.

I'd stick with the base "chassis", similar to the OGBM, and allow various upgrades and weapon load-outs define the differences.  That's what I was looking at for a Bio-Titan list.
Author:  nealhunt [ Thu Apr 23, 2009 3:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Quote: (arkturas @ 22 Apr. 2009, 12:39 )

I'm looking forward (a long way) to a potential Bio-Titan themed list.
a) Are DC12+ and DC18+ Bio-Titans acceptable in the 800pt and 1200pt brackets?
b) Would lower DC values with regen be better?
c) If regen is implemented for larger Bio-Titans how would that impact on the current Bio-Titans?

I'm not sure there's precedent or support for bigger, Imperator style biotitans.  The Nid biosphere doesn't really support biotitans until the final phases of an invasion, just before they focus on consuming the planet.  Nid creatures bigger than biotitans are terrain features.

Like Chroma said, I think a theoretical biotitan list would do better to focus on variety in the big boys rather than larger size.
Author:  arkturas [ Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:41 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
I can see the current chassis with upgrades as the basis of a Bio-Titan list and where a regen upgrade would be.

Maybe someone can fill in the details on the Bio-Titan sizes. My feeling from the old Epic:SM era was the Hierophant (Now Hydraphant) was somewhere between Reaver and Warlord and the Hierodule (Now Hierophant) was between Warhound and Reaver. The current sizes seem to have shrunk so I think at least one larger chassis would be needed anyway (12DC) and maybe skip the Emperor class (18DC).

I know guess work on an unknown list isn't particularly useful but is a Swarm Style Bio-Titan list a good idea because that is the feeling I have if you use the current chassis with upgrades and have no larger chassis options. I might thrash something out to get a feel for a Bio-Titan list.
Author:  Roberious [ Tue May 19, 2009 5:06 am ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
I think that Tyranid Bio Titans need something to allow them to stay on the battlefield a  little longer. Without any Power fields or similar one good hit from a Titan Killer shot can kill a Hierophant, Vituperator and even the Hydarphant as I witnessed recently. Eldar and Imperial titans have better survivablity and although the Orks only have their powerfields atleast it still gives them some sustainability and even suffering criticals they still hang around for a while. So it's either Regeneration, some sort of field or a possibility to save against a TK shot, especially Death Strikes. I'll be honest that one of my main reasons is that I like to see these cool mini's around on the table because they look good and with little or no shooting to speak of they should be able to get across the table every once in a while and engage the enemy to rip them apart with slashing claws.
Author:  Chroma [ Tue May 19, 2009 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Regeneration and Larger Bio-Titans
Quote: (Roberious @ 19 May 2009, 05:06 )

I think that Tyranid Bio Titans need something to allow them to stay on the battlefield a  little longer. Without any Power fields or similar one good hit from a Titan Killer shot can kill a Hierophant, Vituperator and even the Hydarphant as I witnessed recently. Eldar and Imperial titans have better survivablity and although the Orks only have their powerfields atleast it still gives them some sustainability and even suffering criticals they still hang around for a while.

One thing to consider is that the Tyranid Bio-Titans are "cheap" for their DC... the Hierophant, at 275 points, has 6DC vs a Warhound with 3DC (and 2 VS) at a similar point cost.  That makes the Big Bug harder to break and more effective in assaults.

So it's either Regeneration, some sort of field or a possibility to save against a TK shot, especially Death Strikes.

Both of the Bio-Titans have invulerable saves to represent the Warp Field that they generate, so they *do* get to make (6+) saves against any TK hits... unlike any other Titans... besides the weedy Eldar, of course!   :laugh:
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