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Thoughts on Tyranids

 Post subject: Thoughts on Tyranids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:03 pm 
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People have been asking for a comparison for a while, and -after a whole weekend of playing games- i've finally got the time to compile some thoughts on some changes that I would make to the 'Nid list.  I'll comment on my reasons why and wherefore but I can't comment on how i reckon points costing should be handled.

The two bat-reps that have influenced this post can be found in the epic battle reports section, posted by myself and Edgar San.

UNTS

Lictors
It goes without saying these guys should be +1 EA, First Strike, Sniper. Get rid of MW

Genestealers
In the French list these guys have no armour save; taccomms at least gives them a 6+ and seeing as they're as tough as Orks in 40k they should keep the taccomms stats.

Harridan
We're of the opinion that 'Nids are in desperate need of something faster on the ground; these should be kept as we've got them in v.9.1; after all; flyers are usually jets screaming through the sky at several hundred KPH and i'm pretty sure a harridan can't get those sort of speeds going! As i've said before armies are best flavoured by what the CAN'T do; fliers should be this for the 'nids: after all if they want to be able to do anything 'air assualt' like there is the oppurtunity for Mycetic Spores from Razorfiends and the such like in the French list; which i believe to be very well balanced; there are only limited oppurtunities for the power of a nid spore drop.

Warriors
I could live with either set of stats, BUT the french list has them as LV's; a big no no; you can't instant kill a single warrior in 40k (say, with a lascannon) and there are 3 per stand in epic; without going through the math here it's still more effective to rake them with heavy bolter and AP fire than concentrate AT weaponry on them; regardles of this it ALSO makes it far too easy to target them individually and we are of the opinion that having them as LV either makes not taking them a no brainer (hive tyrants all the way...) or if you do a MASSIVE risk.

Hormagaunts
SHould go to 2x5+ CC attacks as opposed to 4+' it better reflects the nature of their attacks in 40k and uprgades thier ability slightly; there has been much talk on the essential uselessness of gaunts.  (for more on this see below)

French army list structure
We liked the 'ork' horde feel to it.  And in no way does this structure make the tyranids feel ork like; in fact they feel like MORE tyranids due to it. Ork like incentives for taking larger formations should be included.  I can't suggest what these would be; not my strong point.

Tyranid Anti Aircraft Capability
THere are two ways to do this; and i think the french way is a bit more characterful; i like the image of a tyranid invasion being accompanied by choking skies, the very athmosphere itself being taken over by strange organisms etc...As has been discussed on here if the french AA system is kept then there should be some sort of a structure that must be placed on the table (a warengine; 4DC, similar to the infestation that 9.1 has?) that makes it possible to dispose of this AA threat.  I imagine it would be something like a 'spore chimney' that is coughing these things out. There has been talk of something like the above but with range 'unlimited' to make the mechanics more streamlined and easy to read into.
If 9.1/s Meiotic spores are kept then they should be FEARLESS or similar; there's no way these brainless sacks of bio-explosives should care about being shot at etc.

Warengines
In the french list you could field as many bio titans as you'd like; i suggest either working along the taccomm's lines or a 1/3rd limit as is standard in some other armies.
additionally
Lose regenrate from the french list; too based on luck. INstead go with 9.1's additional Damage Capacity system

Spawning
Characterful and reasonably simple but for what it's worth in game effectively useless...the SWARM system is somewhat clunky too and i don't think add's all that much to the list; as well as allowing some really wierd 'gamey' formations to be created; Harridans with Malefactors tagging along for example.
For ease of use i'd drop both.

Bio Tanks
I like how the french list deals with these a lot better; Malefactors allow a reasonable amount of transport, the RA armour suits the sheer SIZE of these regenarative monsters a lot better, and allows for a really nice heavy hitting spearhead for those of us who still like the E:40K era (and before) image of the nids (for, in current gw canon, they don't exist).  I especially like how exocrines are done in the french list. THe possibility of having a 9 strong spearhead of these is nasty (though reaonably expensive!).  Additionally, to follow the Exocrine argument, they allow the possibility of nids being able to more easily place BM's in preparation for combat; something they currently have a hard time doing.

Disposable Gaunts and Brood Creatures?
THere has been much discussion on this recently; especially concerning how easy it is for Nid's to lose horrifically in engage actions depsite this supposedly being their strong point. We reckon we've got the perfect solution to this (below) but here i'll just comment on the generation of BM's for brood creatures.
In some way we believe that both lists managed to pull of the unstoppable nature of the 'nid horde quite well through a variety of means and mechanics but reckon the 9.1's not allowing BM's to be generated for the destruction of brood creatures was by far better and a real incentive to take them in hordes; coupled with our sugestion of an incentive system for larger broods we reckon this will keep most nid lists flavoured and gives the 'wave of tooth and claw' feel that we've been looking for..

Supreme Commanders
I'd say that being forced to spend 450 points on a formation that quite often needs further protection to keep alive (because of its BTS status) either via Hierodules of taking further expensive WE's to draw the TK fire is a bit harsh on the army (no one else has to go to such lengths).  Either the influence of the Hive Mind should be shown by allowing a free/points costed Supreme Commander upgrade to a sinlge Hive Tyrant (my favoured option) or by having it as an off table addition to the army (again, for free; to show the immense psychic prescence of the Hive Mind); i imagine this would be quite unbalancing however.

Solving the combat problem
I think we're onto something with the ideas that follow. Basically the problem that has been mentioned here on the baords and the one we encountered time ant time again during our games is that it is nigh on impossible for a gaunt swarm to win a combat against even an evenly matched foe that has been prepped for assualt; mostly due to the fact that the gaunts die in droves stacking up combat res points in favour of the enemy. Gaunts should be the mainstay of tyranid infantry
Now; this is HOW IT SHOULD BE, gaunts are just thrown recklessly into combat in unending hordes and they're pretty fragile as things go; HOWEVER; we're talking about creatures that continue to fight on despite having had limbs blown off and great holes torn in thier sides DUE TO THE MASSIVE POWER OF THE HIVE MIND...our suggestion: make all Synapse Creatures 'inspiring', Tyranids warriors to a 2:1 ration (every 2 warriors gives +1 inspiring resolution rounding up). Hive Tyrands in the French List are already Inspiring. The way the french list is organised means that you can't gain more than a +3 combat bonus to get more synapse creatures than that. A quick bit of theory hammer combined with going over the games we'd played made us realise that at most the nid's weren't losing by more than 2-3 on casualties when an assault had been properly prepared for gaunt swarms.

A side note on ZOanthropes: In the french list they're Synapse but we don't think they should be inspiring, they're also Leaders which we think captures the additional bolstering prescence they give quite well; as such i'd make both 'leader' and 'inspiring' something in the Notes seciton of a Unit and NOT have 'inspiring' as a FACET of 'synapse'



Conclusion

I would personally make all the changes made above (after all i've suggested them!), probably using a mixture of the french and 9.1 army lists to create balance.
Do let us know what you think; we'll be playtesting with the above changes (hopefully drawing up a personal proposal for a version 10.0 list (although we're aware that we've not been involved in the original deveopment and don't want to seem as though we're stepping on people's toes we reckon all the above is pretty good stuff...), and so will hopefully bring a report later on in the next couple of weeks,
Keep cool
Yrs,
R>

EDIT: TUNNELLERS: we didn't playtest them but feel in their current incarnation tunelling is grossly overpowered; there have been some goo suggestions on here on how to tone it down.




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 Post subject: Thoughts on Tyranids
PostPosted: Sun Feb 01, 2009 11:59 pm 
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Quote: (Man of kent @ 01 Feb. 2009, 22:03 )

Conclusion[/b][/u]
I would personally make all the changes made above (after all i've suggested them!), probably using a mixture of the french and 9.1 army lists to create balance.
Do let us know what you think; we'll be playtesting with the above changes (hopefully drawing up a personal proposal for a version 10.0 list (although we're aware that we've not been involved in the original deveopment and don't want to seem as though we're stepping on people's toes we reckon all the above is pretty good stuff...), and so will hopefully bring a report later on in the next couple of weeks,

Hey, Mok!  Thanks for the input!

I'm actually working on a v9.2 *AND* a v10.1 list... the v9.2 is a slow evolution, incorporating some of the French stuff, but sticking more closely to the v9.x series.

The v10.0 is a radical combination of v9.x and the French options, but the changes might be too much for some people to swallow in one go.

So, I'm hoping to put out the v9.2 in the very new future, but I'll be reviewing the above to see what I can incorporate.

And I'll be making some comments in a bit as well.

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Tyranids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:13 am 
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Haven't had time to comment on the nid lists yet, but thanks for your comments MoK!

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 Post subject: Thoughts on Tyranids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:17 pm 
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CHroma; good to hear it; i sat push forwards with some radical changes; if they don't work then we'll soon know ;-)

Some additional thoughts whilst people clamour to comment...(these have also been incorporated and edited into my first post for poeple reading things afresh)

Bio Titans
Lose regenrate from the french list; too based on luck. INstead go with 9.1's additional Damage Capacity system

Spawning
Characterful and reasonably simple but for what it's worth in game effectively useless...the SWARM system is somewhat clunky too and i don't think add's all that much to the list; as well as allowing some really wierd 'gamey' formations to be created; Harridans with Malefactors tagging along for example.
For ease of use i'd drop both.




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 Post subject: Thoughts on Tyranids
PostPosted: Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:01 pm 
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Quote: (Man of kent @ 02 Feb. 2009, 12:17 )

Spawning
Characterful and reasonably simple but for what it's worth in game effectively useless...the SWARM system is somewhat clunky too and i don't think add's all that much to the list; as well as allowing some really wierd 'gamey' formations to be created; Harridans with Malefactors tagging along for example.

I can't really say whether it's gamey or not, but I don't think it's useless, even in its current, reduced incarnation.

I know that in my last game, being able to respawn 1 Carnifex saved my Tyrant the next turn. That's just an example, but I'm sure there are several other situation where being able to spawn just a fex units is useful.


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