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Tyrant Guards
lord_bruno
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 5:41 pm 
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Hello from the heart of Europe!!

I haven´t ever played WH40K and I don´t know anything about it, but of course I´m familiar with the background since I have played Epic from 3rd edition on. All I know about the 40K universe in general, and the tyranids in particular, is from Epic.

So...watching the UK-GW webpage, I saw some tough tyranid bugs called Tyrant Guards, why aren´t they in the tyranid lists?, are they suposed to be included in the profile of the Tyrant and Tyranid Warriors?? are they too new in the 40K universe???

Cheers.

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Dave
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 6:01 pm 
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Tyrant Guard used to be in the Tyrant's profile, not sure why they were removed.

I think with the exception of the Ravener, the current Tyranid list is representative of Hive Fleet Behemoth.  Raveners and Tyrant guard were introduced into the background with Hive Fleet Kraken.

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lord_bruno
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:27 pm 
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Yes, Raveners are also new to me. But both Tyrant Guards and Raveners are cool bugs!! I want to use them in my battles!!

I´m not that kind of people that wants all the stuff of 40K in Epic, I don´t know anything about 40K, but I like these bugs and I´ll try to get some proxies.




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Dave
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 7:35 pm 
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Well Raveners are already in the list.  If you want to use Tyrant guard make them an option for the Attack synapse swarm.

+100 points for 2 of these would work:

AV 15cm 4+ 3+ - Fearless, Reinforced Armour
Rending Claws (base contact) Assault Weapons Extra Attack +1

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:08 pm 
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We are limited in what we can, and cannot, include in the Tyranid list. That said if they were to be included they would show up on the unit stat line and not as a separate unit as they are, after all, Tyrant Guards and would be guarding him. On the scale of Epic that would be in the unit itself.

A good number of players I know have mounted Termies on their Tyrant stands to represent the Tyrant Guard, and the stat line could easily be changed to reflect them, for example

Hive Tyrant (AV)
Speed/ Armor/CC/ FF
15cm/ 4+/ 3+/ 5+
Weapons/ Range/ Firepower/ notes
Venom Cannons/ 30cm/ AP5+/ AT6+
Scything Talons/ (Base Contact)/ Assault Weapon/ Extra Attacks +1 MW
Tyrant Guard/ (Base Contact)/ Assault Weapon/ Extra Attacks +1 MW
Notes: Commander, Leader, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Walker Synapse

Jaldon :p

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Lion in the Stars
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:14 pm 
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Tyrant guard are just that:  They exist solely to protect the Hive Tyrant (although what a 4-5 wound monstrous creature needs protection from is a different question entirely).

Adding Tyrant Guard made it 3x harder to kill a tyrant in 4e 40k, and roughly doubled it's effectiveness in CC.  I'm not sure how well the guard work with the new 5e wound allocation rules.  Pretty rude things, all told, though.

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Vermis
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 10:57 am 
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Quote: (Lion in the Stars @ 09 Sep. 2008, 22:14 )

Tyrant guard are just that:  They exist solely to protect the Hive Tyrant (although what a 4-5 wound monstrous creature needs protection from is a different question entirely).

Lascannons.  And the 3rd ed tyranid 'Shoot the Big Ones' rule. :;):  Apparently they made guards almost mandatory.

I get the feeling Epic tyrant guard should be some kind of defensive upgrade to the tyrant, but anything I'd suggest would be a brainfart.

Hive Tyrant etc. etc.
Tyrant Guard/(Base Contact)/Assault Weapon/Extra Attacks +1
Notes: Commander, Leader, Fearless, Reinforced Armor, Invulnerable Save, Walker, Synapse.

?

Epic zoanthropes would make decent proxies - more like the old upright 40K minis, though - possibly with a head swap from one of the placcy infantry.
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jaldon454
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 9:45 pm 
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I get the feeling Epic tyrant guard should be some kind of defensive upgrade to the tyrant, but anything I'd suggest would be a brainfart.


As I said before there is no need to make any changes to the present stats for the Hive tyrant, outside changing the lines as I stated before to represent the Tyrant Guard.

Truthfully this beast doesn't really need any more help as it is plenty tough enough already.

I would have hoped that Tyrant normal would have save 3+ and with Tyrant Guard, you'd get 4+RA. But that plan is not working as the Tyrant itself is too tough now.

I have to disagree with this as it really depends on how you use them, and the same thing applies to the Tyranid Warriors.

If you are a mad hatter, as Jack is with his Nids, then you'll find your Hive Tyrants dropping off here and there. Jack averages about 50% losses in Hive Tyrants when he plays, mostly because he is very aggressive with his armored Swarms. However, other Nid players, myself included, tend to keep the Hive Tyrants in the back of the formation, well away from enemy fire, and rarely send them directly into an assault to mix it up.

Also, Tyranid Warriors rarely get hit, much less DOA, at all as they are buried round about by a mob of common creatures and almost never have the movement to get directly involved in an assault.

In both cases the survivability of the Tyranid Warriors and the Hive Tyrants is based more upon their lack of exposure to enemy action, in general, because of their placement in the swarm then it is of the armor save of the unit itself.

Thanks All...........

Jaldon :p

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zombocom
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 12:26 am 
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I generally just consider Tyrant Guard to be part of the Tyrant's stats, hence the decent save.

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Nicodemus
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 5:24 am 
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Tyrant solo, 3+ save AV (I hope I recalled correctly that Tyrant is an AV?)
Tyrant and retinue, 4+RA infantry? Or just 3+ save but change to infantry?




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jaldon454
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 10:52 pm 
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Frankly, you deserve to lose your Tyrants if you put them to the firing line easily. If you play badly you should get a disadvantage. I've almost always played with multiple Tyrants and didn't ever have problems in keeping them alive (ok Nexus group in middle of infantry did have problems keeping alive, but that is highly intentional as I chose not to put AV fleshwall there). Now, it's almost irrelevant on how I play with them as they tend to die last anyway. I think that change is bad and highly boring.


What change could possibly make a difference if the player using them protects them from combat by putting a meat shield in front of them? That is like saying that something is wrong with Nobz because players put Boyz and Grot meat shields in front of them.

It isn't a matter of the units save as Tyranid Warriors aren't 4+ RA and they survive, rather it is the way players deploy them protecting them from combat action. How can a change in the unit save change this?

Exactly. Except not anymore with 4+RA Tyrant. You don't have worry about getting shot unless it's TK or MW.

How so? Non-MW weapons can KIA a unit that has RA? Considering what I have seen in games the 4+ RA isn't all that it is cracked up to be. I've seen Terminators cut to pieces by regular fire from Orks and they are 4+ RA. My Ravager Titan got ripped apart, once its shields went down, last week to an Ork Uge Blitz Brigade of all Gunwagonz, and the Ravager has 4+ RA.

Jaldon :p

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jaldon454
 Post subject: Tyrant Guards
PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 6:09 am 
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That fact means that I don't need to worry about getting hit once or twice in assault or from AT.


You've never seen Bob or Phil roll dice, Yahtzee they could win rolling lots of ones and twos only :vD  They have got those rolls down pat.

I now see what you meant, but I still do not see it as a problem in are playtesting so far.

Thanks All.........

Jaldon :p

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