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Nid Developement Thread

jaldon454

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 1:37 am

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Ok moved the thread to here

Special Rules

Relentless Change the +2 for Engage and Rally to +1

Spawning

The spawning roll is now 2D3 with the lower of the two rolls used for Swarms that are broken OR have enemy within 30cm while the total of both dice are used for all other swarms.

I would like to continue playtesting that broken swarms cannot spawn unless somebody can come up with a better way to prevent the Nids from using a Withdrawal move to make a further advance into enemy held territory.

Units

Hive Tyrant Spawning (+1) (Please note that on this units Data sheet under notes it already DOES NOT have an Invulnerable Save)

Exocrine Change the Bio-Cannon to 2xAP4+/AT5+
It is also proposed to change all the Bio-Cannons to this stat.

Hierodule Change the unit to DC-3 (Players should keep in mind that the Hierodule while a spidery WE it has never been fearless, and still isn't)

[The DCs were changed so we could drop the entire regen rules, I expected their DCs would need adjustments.]

Trygon Remove Fearless from the notes line.

Malefactor Change the small arms stat line to +1 FF attacks, but change its FF to 4+

Army List

Independents

Bio-Titans either 1xHierophant for 275pts OR 1xHydraphant for 375pts
(You may get ONE Bio-Titan for each three Synapse groups taken)

Uncommon Brood Groups You may purchase one Uncommon Brood Group for each TWO Common Brood Groups in the Army

Start shooting

Jaldon

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Dave

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 2:38 pm

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Relentless Change the +2 for Engage and Rally to +1

The +1 to engage is a good thing, however I think the Tyranids should just ignore the -2 modifier for being broken when rallying. This give synapse swarms incentive to be more than 30cm away from an enemy formation because 1) it will effect their rallying and 2) it will effect their spawning. You might see less bugs diving into the enemies lines when broken because of this.

Also, I believe it fits thematically with the bugs. They shouldn't be effected by moral or frightened due to unit losses, which is what I think the -2 for being broken represents. However, I do think that the hive mind will have a tough time controlling them when there's enemy near by (hunting instincts and all) so I think the -1 for being within 30cm should apply.

The spawning roll is now 2D3 with the lower of the two rolls used for Swarms that are broken OR have enemy within 30cm while the total of both dice are used for all other swarms.

Better due to the lack of halving and rounding down. However I still think the global roll effects the game too much and the adding still makes it fiddly. Once more, I still don't think spawning needs the bonus from the Synapse creatures. Ask yourself this, what other armies have you adding numbers like you do for each Tyranid Synapse swarm?

I would like to continue playtesting that broken swarms cannot spawn unless somebody can come up with a better way to prevent the Nids from using a Withdrawal move to make a further advance into enemy held territory.

Somewhat confused, due to "the lower of the two rolls used for Swarms that are broken OR have enemy within 30cm". Are broken swarms not spawning or using the lower of the two dice? Ã‚Â I haven't found that no spawning when broken is a bad thing in the game I played with 8.4m, I will test with these rules and let you know.

Exocrine Change the Bio-Cannon to 2xAP4+/AT5+
It is also proposed to change all the Bio-Cannons to this stat.

I'll test it, but I think they're being shorted now at 75 points.

Malefactor Change the small arms stat line to +1 FF attacks, but change its FF to 4+

That will be the only Tyranid with a 4+ FF.

Bio-Titans either 1xHierophant for 275pts OR 1xHydraphant for 375pts
(You may get ONE Bio-Titan for each three Synapse groups taken)

No more Hierophant formation of doom?

Good. So are independents still limited to 1/3 the points of the army list? If so I don't think the bio-titan/synapse swarm limit is needed.

Uncommon Brood Groups You may purchase one Uncommon Brood Group for each TWO Common Brood Groups in the Army

I never realized it changed from this! Good.

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jaldon454

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 9:59 pm

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*Note your rational presented in the paragraph below this one is not being ignored. Also Hena consider your post as part of this*

Not trying to trash your idea here just throwing up numbers as I would really like an alternative to be found that will work (Other then Broken No Spawn)

Nids have an Initiative rating of 2+

(1) If we drop the -2 for broken and use just the -1 for enemy within 30cm then the Nid roll becomes a 3+ or the Nids will Rally 83% of the time.

(2) If the -2 For being broken is kept and the -1 for enemy within 30cms is dropped then they will rally 50% of the time (Roll needed 4+).

(3) If both are kept the Nids will rally 33% of the time (Roll needed 5+).

In situation #1, your suggestion if I am correct, then there is almost no incentive for the Nids to get 30cms away from the enemy as their ability to rally is almost a given. In #2 they may just pull up and use it sparingly as it is a toss up. In #3 they would rarely do it as it has a low possibility of success.

Realizing the Nids do need a way to keep their Swarms in action, as assault CC is about the only way they can truly win a battle, they need to be able to Rally quickly from broken status or they could end up in big trouble quickly. The problem becomes how to prevent the Nids from exploiting this ability to quickly Rally by using the Withdrawal Move to penetrate the enemy front lines instead of actually falling back. The unintended consequences of the rules created.

My suggestion allows the Nids to Rally 50% of the time, but if they fail and are within 30cms of an enemy they pay a heavy price in not being able to spawn back units. Note that in the Rally Phase if they fail to Rally they do get another Withdrawal Move which allows the Nid player to try and position the Swarm more then 30cms from an enemy. If the swarm happens to be in the front lines when this happens then all the player need do is pull it back further from the enemy to spawn. If however the swarm is deep in the enemy's rear areas it may be a bit more difficult to use the second Withdrawal Move to get clear.

It may be worth trying to let the Swarms ignore the -2 for broken but retain the inability to spawn if broken and enemy within 30cms. With the second Withdrawal move it may make it less of an issue but still give more of an incentive to not want to chance getting caught IN such a position.

Better due to the lack of halving and rounding down. However I still think the global roll effects the game too much and the adding still makes it fiddly. Once more, I still don't think spawning needs the bonus from the Synapse creatures. Ask yourself this, what other armies have you adding numbers like you do for each Tyranid Synapse swarm?

Not trying to be rude here but the rational really doesn't apply as all the armies have special rules of some sort that are unique. What they are and how they are applied is more the point I believe you are trying to make. Chaos uses a system of points for the calling in of Daemons from a pool of Daemons, based upon the roll of D3s.

Just a few small points.......
(1) What is the difference between a fixed spawning value added to the results of a D3 roll to a fixed number of D3s given to each Synapse creature added to another number of D3 rolls given for the situation?
In the first instance you add the results of the roll to a fixed number, in the second you add and subtract the number of dice used and then add them up.

(2) The issue is speed and ease of implimentation of said spawning.

(3) This makes the basic question then do we want global spawning with one fixed roll effecting all swarms, or rolling for each swarm?

Over the course of a three to four turn game the spawning points returned, overall, work out to be almost identical using either system (When that system is based upon what we are using now but in one instance rolling globally and in the second rolling for each swarm. It is the one I ran through my 'puter using 1,000 battles each of four turns as a base for each in an army with x6 Swarms.)

Somewhat confused, due to "the lower of the two rolls used for Swarms that are broken OR have enemy within 30cm". Are broken swarms not spawning or using the lower of the two dice? I haven't found that no spawning when broken is a bad thing in the game I played with 8.4m, I will test with these rules and let you know.

Player rolls 2D3 to Spawn getting a '4' (Which equals '2') and a '5' (Which equals '3') so his results are a 2 and 3 for spawning.

Swarms that are within 30cms of an enemy unit OR are broken and not within 30cms of an enemy unit use the lower of the two dice rolled for spawning. In this case it would be the '2'. The '2' would then be added to the Swarms Base Spawning Value (let's just say they are Tyranid Warriors so a '1' for a total of a spawning of 3 points)

All other swarms, those NOT broken and that have NO enemy within 30cms use the total of both dice rolled and add that to their Swarms Base Spawning Value ( Again we will use the Tyranid Warriors value of '1' add the two dice together for '5' for a total of a spawning of 6 points)

Hope this makes it clearer.

{Exocrine} I'll test it, but I think they're being shorted now at 75 points.

If it is then we can easily adjust its points. My preference in almost all cases would be to weaken the Nid unit, and lower its PV then to make it tougher and raise its points. (Note I said ALMOST all)

That will be the only Tyranid with a 4+ FF.

I know this, and that is the intention, to see if it works better with x2 FF4+ then the x3 FF shots at 5+. Remember the change also includes reducing it to +1 FF attack.

No more Hierophant formation of doom? Good. So are independents still limited to 1/3 the points of the army list? If so I don't think the bio-titan/synapse swarm limit is needed.

Yea the limit is still in force for now as it is intended to prevent the Nid players form really going nuts with WEs which, even with this limit, they still can (see later)

I never realized it changed from this! Good.

I messed with (3 for 1) and (2 for 1) and felt that the 2-1 was Ok and the 3-1 maybe too restrictive. The intention is to turn the focus further toward the commons.

TRC The Nidzilla List Or how many WEs did you say the Army has

TRC it isn't that I have been ignoring you, it is just that dealing with the Nid WEs outside of the Synapse Creatures is easy to limit using various different methods, it is just a matter of finding the ones that work and are acceptable.

At present I have sent an idea to Chroma, as he is a major part of this project, for his thoughts. It is the Synapse Creatures that are the problem, or how do you limit them without causing a mass number of "You have wrecked the Army" posts?

Think of it this way TRC, around half the WEs in the Nidzilla list are coming from the Synapse section of the list, and believe me I do want to fix this problem, but exactly how. (Yes we are talking directly about the Harridan and Vituperator only, immobile, almost defenseless, synapse nodes are not a problem)

0-1 per 2,000 points?

0-1 per 2,000 points for each of them?

Some other point restriction?

Some other formation restriction?

Make the Harridan an AV to remove another WE from the list (It wasn't a WE in the former versions of the game)?

Make both of them Armor 5+ and reduce their DCs (This would make them weaker but it wouldn't keep players from fielding them)?

Remove the Vitepurator from Synapse and make it an Independent Bio-Titan, maybe increase it's transport to x12 (No synapse anymore but a big bug transport)?

Please don't anybody panic none of the above are being implemented, they are just being used to address the problem, and the difficulty of same. No doubt about it the availability of WEs in the Synapse list, when combined with independents and uncommons, produces a WE heavy Nidzilla list which is very un-Nid like. It has to be addressed.

Thanks All...........

Jaldon

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Evil and Chaos

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Mon Aug 04, 2008 10:10 pm

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Make the Harridan an AV to remove another WE from the list (It wasn't a WE in the former versions of the game)?

The Harridan is a huge War Engine in 40k, and making it an AV would be completely against the currently background, regardless of what it may have been like in the past.

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jaldon454

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 12:19 am

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he Harridan is a huge War Engine in 40k, and making it an AV would be completely against the currently background, regardless of what it may have been like in the past.

As I have had little to do directly with 40K in the last two years thanks for the heads up E&C

Jaldon

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jaldon454

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:14 am

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Jaldon, what are you trying to achieve that broken cannot spawn?

Why do you keep saying this? I never said that broken could not spawn. I said Broken AND within 30cms of enemy cannot spawn.

You don't want to the tyranids to move towards enemy when broken to prevent objective playing on turn 3?

Nothing I have said that prevents this, I only want to discourage it. Other Armies can do it yes, but they pay a heavy price if their formations fail to rally. The Nids on the other hand, if allowed to spawn when still broken and enemy within 30cms, would be able to spawn a meat shield to eat up losses to BMs and retain their position.

I could go onwards with no spawn if within 30cm

Why do you keep repeating this? I never said it. Both conditions must apply the swarm MUST be broken AND MUST be within 30cms of the enemy ONLY THEN does the swarm become incapable of Spawning.

Also I have hard time of understanding WE problem.

Have you missed the Nidzilla List both TRC and I have put up? One list itself has 44xDCs in it at 3,000 points all with 4+ RA and well over half of them are fearless. The list also has 1,000 points left for commons, and fields stealers and has x8 activations. Yes I consider this to be a problem. (How many Shadowswords need one take to defeat this?)

As to Malefactor being only FF4+ in the list. I believe it shouldn't be.

I wished to try it as I wanted to see if it would be a better alternative then the x3 FF shots at 5+ it presently gets. It feels wrong with three FF shots. Now if it doesn't work it goes.

Also that reminds me, since it's now a Planetfalling, should we get Spacecraft capable of carrying it?

That is reserved for the Phase III list, this is a Phase IV list.

Jaldon

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jaldon454

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 5:30 pm

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Hena, never a problem we have been around the block enough times, sometimes in the same direction sometimes not. Either way the other is never hesitant to admit mistakes openly (Hey I really thought the SC re-roll wasn't used for Rallies, how long you been working on this game Jaldon :whistle:

)

Here is the Nidzilla List I posted

Independents
x2 Hierophants=550pts
x6 lictors=300pts
x6 Genestealers=150pts
Total=1,000pts

Synapse
x1 Dominatrix=450pts
x1 Vituperator=300pts
x2 Synapse Nodes=250pts
Total=1,000pts

Uncommom
x8 Biovores=300pts
x2 Hierodule=250pts
x2 Exocrine=150pts
x2 Trygon=200pts

Common
x8 Gargoyles=200pts
x20 Hormogants=250pts
x16 Termagants=300pts
x8 Raveners=250pts
Total=1,000pts

To boot I even shorted myself 100 points in Uncommons and should have added some more Termagants. Also the Army has eight activations.

x2 Hierophant=12xDC
x1 Dominatrix=8xDC
x1 Vituperator=6xDC
x2 Hierodule=8xDC
x2 Trygon=4xDC
Total 38xDC in a 3,000 point list.

x4 Warhounds=12xDC 1,000 points
x9 Shadowswords=27xDC 1,500 points
Total 2,500points
Regimental HQ 500 points
Total of six activations in a 3,000 point list.

The point is the IG player cannot put together an effective army for 3,000 points if he equals the number of DC the Nid player can. On the flip side the Nid player can easily do it, and a minor points raise isn't going to solve the problem. IMHO I am not being flip here I do see this as a serious problem as I do not want the Nid players fielding WE hordes as it is not the background. Like the AVs they should be ancillary to the commons, not the other way around.

Thanks All

Jaldon

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Dave

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:29 pm

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(1) If we drop the -2 for broken and use just the -1 for enemy within 30cm then the Nid roll becomes a 3+ or the Nids will Rally 83% of the time.

Either I didn't my idea across or you messed up some math/misspoke.

It should be 67% not 83%. Here my calculations.

The Current Way (+2 to rally)

100% - not broken, not within 30cm (+2)
100% - not broken, within 30cm (+1)
Ã‚Â 83% - broken, not within 30cm (+0)
Ã‚Â 67% - broken, within 30cm (-1)

Your Suggestion (+1 to rally)

100% - not broken, not within 30cm (+1)
Ã‚Â 83% - not broken, within 30cm (+0)
Ã‚Â 67% - broken, not within 30cm (-1)
Ã‚Â 50% - broken, within 30cm (-2)

My Suggestion (ignore -2 when broken)

Ã‚Â 83% - not broken, not within 30cm (+0)
Ã‚Â 67% - not broken, within 30cm (-1)
Ã‚Â 83% - broken, not within 30cm (+0)
Ã‚Â 67% - broken, within 30cm (-1)

What I was trying to accomplish was to allow Tyranids to be unaffected by moral, unit loss etc (ie no -2 for being broken) but still be difficult to control, especially when enemies are near by.

I understand that you don't want Tyranids using their withdraw move to move onto the oppoents side (ie closer to enemy units) but I think there's enough deterrent with a 67% chance of failing to rally. Especially when compounded with spawning loss where the best they can hope for is 1/2 of the spawning points they could have gotten if they were more than 30cm away.

Not trying to be rude here but the rational really doesn't apply as all the armies have special rules of some sort that are unique. What they are and how they are applied is more the point I believe you are trying to make. Chaos uses a system of points for the calling in of Daemons from a pool of Daemons, based upon the roll of D3s.

Yes, Chaos does have the D3s, but not modifiers that have to be remembered and added. Ã‚Â That was my point. I don't think the Synapse values are needed. If we eliminate them than all a player has to add is the numbers right in front of them.

(1) What is the difference between a fixed spawning value added to the results of a D3 roll to a fixed number of D3s given to each Synapse creature added to another number of D3 rolls given for the situation?
In the first instance you add the results of the roll to a fixed number, in the second you add and subtract the number of dice used and then add them up.

The same point I made above, the difference it is less to remember. Ã‚Â The numbers are right in front of you on the D3s. Ã‚Â Just add them up. Ã‚Â You don't have to remember Synapse values for every creature.

Over the course of a three to four turn game the spawning points returned, overall, work out to be almost identical using either system (When that system is based upon what we are using now but in one instance rolling globally and in the second rolling for each swarm. It is the one I ran through my 'puter using 1,000 battles each of four turns as a base for each in an army with x6 Swarms.)

Identical how? Ã‚Â With regards to average? Ã‚Â If so, then of course. They are not identical with regards to standard error however. The bigger the sampling means the smaller the standard error.

Lets take a recent battle I recorded as an example, it was 3 rounds and I rolled a 5, 5, and 6 for spawning. My point is that had I done spawning rolls for each swarm the chances of the averages per turn being 5, 5 and 6 respectively is very low indeed. This is because the standard error is lower.

More average rolls across the board means its easier to balance and each roll effects the game less. You want to minimize the chances of a player having a really good/bad spawning game.

Player rolls 2D3 to Spawn getting a '4' (Which equals '2') and a '5' (Which equals '3') so his results are a 2 and 3 for spawning.

Getting there, is this what you mean?
5 - not broken, not within 30cm
2 - not broken, within 30cm
2 - broken, not within 30cm
0 - broken, within 30cm

That is elegant for how you modified Markconz approach to a global roll.

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Ginger

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 6:40 pm

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One of the significant differences between the two WE heavy lists is the number of Fearless WE in the 'Nidzilla list, which just makes it a whole lot harder. Sure the IG tanks have better firepower, but if they lose an assault they miserably. If the Hierophant or Dominatrix lose an assault it mentally shrugs its ceritinous hide an marches on - with an almost certain chance of rallying because of the +2, and in the case of the Dominatrix, respawning all the way where it can!

To me, respawning is not the issue here - Fearless just gives these things a whole different game especially with the intsa-rally. Losing either the rally bonus or the Fearless makes a big difference, and when I played TRC with the Nidzilla without Fearless, it made all the difference because you had to be a more circumspect.

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Dave

Post subject: Nid Developement Thread

Posted: Tue Aug 05, 2008 8:00 pm

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I don't know if we want to belabor the summoning connection, people are looking for other solutions there as well. At any rate, you still only have to remember the two units in the LotD that have AS and the one in the BL that has it. As opposed to the 6 Tyranid creatures.

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